Sarah Williamson & Katie Nash: EdTech Trends, K-12 Education, Thought Leadership, School Leadership Advice

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Welcome to the Learning Can't Wait podcast an iTutor production at iTutor. Our vision is to ensure every child has access to education regardless of circumstance. Each episode, we will be joined by Pathfinders within and around the education space who are bringing about transformational. On behalf of deserving students, I am your host, Hayley Spau.

Welcome back everybody to today's episode of The Learning Can't Wait podcast. I have. Two people on the podcast today that you have heard on the Learning Can't Wait scene before, as I appeared on their podcast Building Momentum a little while back, but they have far greater accomplishments than just their podcast, which is awesome, which we'll be talking about today.

We have Sarah Williamson, the founder of SWPR Group. Welcome, Sarah. Thanks Hayley. Happy to be here. So happy to have you. And we have Catherine, aka Katie Lash, the Executive Director of East Central Educational Service Center in Indiana. Katie, welcome, thanks for inviting us, Hayley. And yeah, I'm lucky to have seen you a couple of times this week.

So, as we said before we started recording, Katie, I have spent a few, a few calls together this week, but really glad to have Sarah in the fold because. I was brought to meeting both of you via Sarah and getting to know you has been an absolute joy. So why don't we let the audience, the listeners of the Learning can wait, podcast, hear why I get so excited to talk to you when you share how you came to be the professional and personal version of yourself.

Sarah, why don't we start with you? Ooh, can you tell us about that? Cuz that'll be a natural intro I think, into Katie. Yes. Perfect. That's, that's so much fun. Well, I'm one of those crazy people that I actually went to school for my professional degree. I have degrees in PR and journalism, if you can believe that.

And I went on to work in pr. I went, I worked for a couple of different agencies in Portland, and one of my clients back, way back in 2006 was Apex Learning. A digital online curriculum company when online learning was so cool and so new and have, and all the reporters that I tried to pitch were like, yes, how fast can we talk to the c e o of this company?

It's not like that anymore. Now it's a lot noisier, a lot more crowded, different, really fun space, though there's so much ener energy and excitement. And in K-12 in particular in EdTech, I started my company that I ended up, consulting with in 2012. And then, since it's. Quite a bit. And we have an amazing team of people where, where we work with thought leaders in the space to help share their stories, tell them au authentically, and that's, that's kind of, it's merged my professional and personal because all of these people have become friends, colleagues, and it's such an incredible place to.

To specialize because we have so much fun. But we're also working to help elevate the impact of kids and educators and supporting these so many burnt out superintendents, helping them find solutions to their challenges. So I'm having a blast, and that is how I met Katie Lash. I'll let you, I just take it over.

Yeah. Virtual baton do Nice. Yeah. Way there. I kinda went to traditional route of, education. I was fourth grade teacher, then I taught high school special education. I was middle school principal, finished, you know, my credentials for district leadership and probably saw. Being an assistant Super soup and stumbled into the service center cuz I knew a lot of the people in the area and it was the best stumble I ever made because I, I love what I get to do.

So I, I work with 41 school districts in East Central Indiana. I generalized by saying we do everything that's a good idea to do as a big. A big group project. And so, I think some version of me exists in every state, but everybody operates a little bit differently. But yeah, that's my story to now and then, I get the good fortune of, meeting with a lot of, of innovators technology folks just because, as kind of.

I don't know, wanna say a connector that's trying to find what's new and exciting that's out there. And then that's, yeah, that's how I met Sarah. So, , you met. Let's get the full story. Cause now y'all do some really awesome storytelling together. But you met and then what happened? So, I don't know. We, when I, I was at an event where like, you know, lots of different companies are pitching and or taking their own approach to trying to sell me things, or sometimes they wanna sell to me.

Sometimes I'm not the end user, right? They don't need to get to the school districts. So I have, I've never been in sales. Like I said, I've, I've stayed in the class classroom, K-12 space, but I have opinions. About sales . So really, no, that's, that's where Sarah and I first started say, I was like, you know, they, that person said this.

to me. And I was like, that's really offensive. Like, do they not know that they sound offensive? And then like, then it turned into Sarah's like, tell me more. What do you mean by that? And then we spent like a whole hour of like, things that people say to me that are like a turnoff, or approaches that are turnoff.

And then Sarah and I were, yeah, that's, that's the, that's the story. And we haven't, we haven't stopped talking since . Wait, I love that. I didn't know that. Like. So, so like candidly, Katie, like I was a school admin for a while too, and so I was the recipient of the emails that, you know, even my team sends today.

So like, I, I feel you. Are we allowed to talk about some of the things that were a turnoffs for you? Oh sure. Hi. Yeah, have a list. . Well, ed, interestingly, since that, I mean Sarah and I've known each other for, I don't know, a while now, but my husband was also in the traditional K-12 space, just like your kind of story, Hayley.

And now he works for an edtech company. So I like hear it in my house of like, you know, he's trying to make the sale and I'm. That's exactly what I don't like people to do to me. And so that's kind of funny. But yeah, some things that turn, well, I had this, this was at the time that Sarah and I were talking about this.

This was a big trigger for me is we qualify for ESSER. Like every email of all time ever was saying that. And we're. I just, that was a turn off to me because I, I was like, don't tell me how to spend my money or, or if you're gonna tell me how to spend my money, then like, gimme some really like aligned.

Like why not just you qualify for ESSER Caso? Does everyone, more or less, I mean obviously there's restrictions, but that was one of my first ones. Sarah, what are some of the ones that we've talked about before? Partner. Oh yeah. I don't , I don't like people's like, okay, on our first date, I don't like people saying, We are partners.

We're not a vendor. We're not, we're not selling you we're partners that, I don't like that at all. I mean, I do have companies who are partners because we have like done things together. Yeah. Yeah. And built together and, understandable. Understandable. Well, but this is sort the premise for your podcast, right?

Like talk, let, let's talk a little bit about the podcast and what building Momentum is trying to. Yeah, so it's a thought leadership and education is our premise for the show, and we are trying to talk with and feature either through Katie and our conversations or through the people we interview, people who are elevating their voice in an authentic way in the space, that they're not selling hard, they're not putting the brand forward in, in their outreach and in their communication.

They're really telling a story and they're sharing a message in an impactful. So how can we do that better? We try to look at it from the, the lens of very varying angles, but thinking about how we can support and provide broader perspectives for think people to think about sharing the message of their product company.

Brand.It's usually not about you and it's not about your product. It's about how you come across to others.And that's really what we, we talked about. We talk about that on Build, build momentum. And Katie's interview with the things she hates . It wasn't just about things she hates. We also gave good, good advice on how to be successful when you're reaching out.

But it was market marketing, emails, the good, the bad, and U in the ugly. Check out that episode. It's a good one to listen. I'm excited. I don't think I heard that one. I've like gone through it deep. I've, but I I somehow missed that one. Yeah, yeah. You know, listen, I, I, I think I'm glad you are doing what you're doing and as someone who appreciates storytelling deeply, I think it storytelling is what has made the pandemic.

Fallout really like the, everyone around the country world pay attention to education more. And so the way that you're talking about storytelling and thought leadership really resonates with me. I, I'm wondering if you two were to give a state of the union on education today, how you would frame or how you would address.

What's happening in and around schools and districts as it relates to progress and change? Like you each have unique vantage points, like how would you say we're moving? Like what is the state of the union? I have a lot of thoughts. I'm sure Katie does too. Go, you're, you're closer to it, Katie. Go for it.

Well, it's interesting, I've been on calls most of the day right. Of, of problem solving, alongside districts because we have recognized challenges that we haven't seen in the years past. Right. And quite frankly, I, I took this role, kind of mid pandemic, so I haven't been in the building with students like post pandemic and.

Hearing folks say like, this is different now. I mean, there, there certainly are very real struggles that are, are new. And so again, a lot of the calls that I'm on as, as a service agency is like, well then how do we help help? How do we help solve that? All the while? So, so it's really easy to focus like, you know, on the very, acute teacher shortage.

it's very easy to focus on learning loss. Students are in need of remediation. That is true, right. I say a lot. I, I preface all of that to say I think the real state of the union is really optimistic because I think we saw people really try things that they wouldn't have tried before that we, we were ha we did have the, as much as I don't like everybody saying that they qualify, ESSER, like those dollars.

Allowed people to think outside the box, try things they wouldn't have otherwise. And there's, there's something really beautiful in that. I, I think we've seen people become a little bit more nimble. Things that would've taken like a long time to implement. We, we realize we can do it really fast if we have to.

Fun, fun side notes, like my girls getting, getting ready here to the like metaphor to connect it to. Some of my, some of the time my girls are pokey getting ready in the morning. Well, we almost missed the bus the other day. I learned really quickly they can get dressed quickly if they have to. Is the motherhood of invention or efficiency really?

Yeah. Depend on how you look at it. Yeah. So I think we saw that. We saw that happen, right With when we had to pivot, we realized we can. And so I think that that was really exciting. So I, I also love to see, and I mean, again, I'm more in the K-12 space, but just to even know all of the ideas of the technology, the new resources that are out there that were born, identifying those needs, it's really exciting.

So I say all that to say there really are really true challenges and, and those, those problems are real, but we're also seeing some pretty creative solutions. And that's kind of, Thank you very much. Glass half full of Katie. I was kind of gonna do the opposite. . Well, maybe that's why you're a good team, right?

Like for the pod, you know? So, so let's hear it. You, you talk to so many school leaders on a regular basis. Yes. What, what is, and companies. And companies, right? Sorry. Both ends of it. What are you hearing? Hearing what? What's your reflections? I'm definitely seeing an interesting pullback from spending on marketing and people are really, I think they're a little panicked about what's pending in the next year, that ESSER cliff.

There seems to be a bit of a nervousness. I mean, we see it today, Microsoft, a couple days ago today, Google laying off 10,000 jobs. So I think there's like a murmur of anxiety in the air in terms of are people gonna continue spending? Clearly they're not gonna continue the spending. They were in the. How are things going to shake out?

How are companies going to evolve? Stay nimble, get flexible. Who's gonna, who's gonna remain after this? You know, this, this cliff does dissolve. Who are gonna be those companies that are standing? How are districts gonna continue to spend their money? I'm a little bit concerned. I know there's innovation that's been happening, Katie, I totally see that and hear it.

I'm a little concerned. There are a lot of districts that are excited to get as fast as possible, back to the normal they had before. . And yes, there's some technology, but it's not as much as we'd like to see and with the potential that we had. Oh, yeah. Nice. Yeah. Can can I add on to that? Yes. You're so, you're so right that, I mean, I, it kind of is a trigger for me when people are like, we wanna go back to normal or whatever, because I don't, I don't think we're ever going back, like, it's just not gonna be a thing.

Say that. I know, I know. Like, I know. It's, it's not a thing. I will fully and completely though empathize with the, I, I think the unspoken lift that people, because so many people were coming to the market. So as much as I said that's exciting. I totally am saying the glass half full version of that. To vet products, to listen to all of the pitches, to listen, just to even like process the opportunities.

Has and continues to be completely overwhelming. So, so to your, to your point Sarah, like some folks are gonna fall off. They just are and, and it'll be interesting, like some of those products are probably better than others. Like it's who got whose ear, which is a fascinating, like, other dynamic. Like, are they actually the better product?

Like, or do they have better friends? I dunno, I don't know. Or do they have better, which is super interesting, right? Because we are gonna see people, like, we're gonna see companies and ideas die off and, but on the side of the. Holy cow. It is. Im. To see the, the lay of the land and, and the volume of people that came at, at everybody with those dollars.

Like, it, it was insanity. And so empathizing, empathizing for the districts in that sense of like, they just, they just genuinely can't here at all. And so are we even getting, are we even seeing the ones that we should be seeing, you know, so I could not agree with you both, which is like the interesting part of this, like obviously I'm on the, the edtech side of this equation and I really do a lot of reading and one, I just pulled up an article from Chalk Beat about New York City, how there's 7 billion in relief funding that went to New York City and schools have renewable tools and, and vendors they've implemented during this cycle of spending that they're very concerned they're not going to have.

What will drive that? I was talking to someone earlier about, well, will impact an efficacy be enough to drive, spend year over year post esser funds when the cliff hits? There's like a big question mark around that for me that I'm sure you're thinking about too, or you're hearing people thinking about as well, like.

Yeah, there's so many tools we have to probably call some of them. And is it impact that drives the one that remains or the ones that remain? Maybe it's becoming more of a thing. I mean, I've, I've heard on a few different calls recently that that's becoming a, a requirement in some of these RFPs to track, like that's, that's a tracking mechanism that they wanna see, is this working?

And that's new. Is that crazy? Yeah. But it's also interesting because some products lend themselves somar. Well, this is actually Hayley, when you were on the episode of Build Momentum, we kind of talked about this. Like, how do you measure thought leadership? Like some of the products out there would be hard to have these really tangible metrics of how they move the needle for districts.

So if you're, you're a type of product that like just isn't as black and white, how, how do they enter that game? That's an interesting, I mean, I'm really just coming to this conclusion as I'm verbally processing this right now. But there would be people who, that would, it would be hard to. To, quantify the, the importance that certain products make.

So can I actually go back? Interestingly, this is like a total sidebar, but you brought up that specific question. I have been reflecting on it since you asked it of me. So I'm gonna ask it of you and then I'm gonna tell you what my reflections have been since you asked it of me, because I have lost sleep over it.

So you asked me the question, how do you measure the ROI of thought leadership? Now folks can go into the episode on the, it's not building momentum. Forgive me. It's build momentum. It's okay. Yeah. And hear your answers, but I'd love for us to repeat it now that we're having this dialogue. Oh, are you gonna say we're wrong?

Cuz I wanna know your answer first. I think. Oh, there's no right or wrong. That was what you, you, you synthesized that for me, Sarah. Wrong . But Sarah, what would you say? And Katie, what would you say is the ROI of thought leader? Well, can you tack on a specific r o ROI that I feel like that's, clients will ask us, okay, we want to know the roi.

If we're gonna partner with you, what are we going to get at the end? In one year's time? What will we see? And if we say, oh yeah, you're gonna grow your business 30%, we're total wires, like we don't know that. What we can do is we can say what we're gonna do based on the scope of work, is we are going to.

Put you and your story forward facing in the media. It's speaking engagements through awards. It's a groundswell of effort and it's, it's really something that you can measure in terms of social media. You can measure in terms of circulation of publications, but the needle on that, how much influence did me making all those areas, it's very difficult to quantify.

I would love to know if you have some other solution because it's definitely something we're always exploring If you, you could buy very expensive data and software platforms that will tell you you're quantifying it, but they're not necessarily accurate and they're very expensive, so they're really not worth the investment, in my opinion.

Well, too, too many variables. I mean, even too many if you measure a certain variable, like there's, right, there's a, yeah. But yeah, I think, I don't know that my, I don't remember specifically what I said that the, the, I don't either, but Wow. We'll see. We'll, I'll go back and listen now and see if I, yeah. Say the same thing.

No, I, I think that, Leadership. I mean, you, you have to view it as professional development for those that engage in that. Right? It's really the outcome of it, because I think that, well, and a really, really tangible example of this, right? Like Hayley, I met you through engaging in this dialogue and thought leadership and like.

I, I have zero idea in this moment why we need to know one another, but like someday I know why we're gonna need to know one another like more, more acutely. Right. Well, yeah, that's to be. There's some ideas already. Thank you. But on the is Bright Katie there? No, and, and like JW Marshall, I wanna like shout out him because like I met him through engaging in these conversations that like we were not driving at an outcome.

Yeah. In those conversations we weren't like, we're gonna, at the end of this call, we're gonna like solve something. No, we, we engaged in thought leadership and of that I heard him listen to him. He has experie. That he is like just being so kind to like help me solve a problem of practice that I have right now.

That is my day job. Like literally to do my job. He has the answers that I need and like, so I can measure that part. But that was only because that was like, A more, immediate return on investment, if that makes sense. Yeah. So yes, JW is the reason why I think I know Sarah . Mm-hmm. , I love him. He's the epitome of a good thought leader, that guy.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I'm definitely gonna send him a text of a picture I just took of the three us recording and be like, get ready. I'm recording. I'm recording with him soon as well. I think next week actually. But, so, so, Katie. And Sarah. Sarah, yes. Like from a, from a like marketing, like you, there's some level that everybody wants to know, but Katie and Sarah, I was talking to my CEO Isaac after the podcast recording and I was like, yo, I'm just not happy with how I answer that question.

Mm-hmm. . And he is like, do you forget why you started this podcast? And he's like, I was like, yeah, maybe like, why did I start this podcast? And he's like, well, one, I was like, yo, start this podcast up. Because I had stopped for a little bit. I was doing podcasts on the platform. But two, it was because I genuinely wanna learn.

Yes. And like all of us are here to elevate education and to move the needle forward. Like you smart people, being guests on my podcast. Helps me learn and do better, whether it be for my company or as a parent or as a person or connect. Then it also helps with the connections you make. So, again, I don't have a, a clean answer, but he was like, you know, the podcast is intended for the rising tide to lift all ships, right?

Like it is intended for that and for, for our organization to learn from what great people are doing to help kids more or to pay teachers more, or to elevate the profess. Yes, I think you hit on it. So I think call leadership, it's providing value. You're providing value and offering value that you hope people either enjoy and you're also learning as well.

So, but when you have paying clients, they say, what are my measurable outcomes? It's, you know, you have to just educate them about the opportunities that we're gonna be presented with that they may not have expected when they're, that was a lot voice. I'm just about to say you used the word value, like provide value.

Then if I add the, the mindset of then tell quantify value. What, what, what is value to me? Sounds like money. The value of like what is the value? That's the interesting, yeah, it is to provide value, but it's like a amorphous value. Provide amorphous value. How do you like that answer? I like it. Well be someone that people wanna keep talking with and asking more questions and they wanna follow you, they wanna engage with you.

They wanna learn from you because you're not talking about yourself, you're not talking about your company or your product. That's, that's really the key. So what, it's not about us. So what stories do you have you heard recently that are really compelling for you? Like, we all love storytelling. What's a story that you've heard recently that really resonated as it relates to education or edtech or anything of the, of that sort?

Do you know the company Frenalytics? I don't. So I just met with the founder. They're not a client, but we're talking with the founder, Matt Giovanniello. Okay. Edit that part. I'm just gonna say the founder, I dunno how to say his last name. . That's cool. Please edit that part please. . Thank you. So the founder at age 12, his grandmother suffered a str a stroke, and.

During open heart surgery and she was recovering and they were using flashcards for the seven year old woman to try to remember basic things in her life. And he said, this is crazy. There's gotta be a better way. As a 12 year old, he created a PowerPoint system that helped customize her learning for her.

And now today started Frenalytics, which is a, basically it's an analytic and a data company that customizes personalizes learning for special ed kids, down syndrome. All these different challenges kids might have, and then he personalizes it and then basically helps teachers, educators, and the student understand where they're falling short, where they need to focus their learning, but it's all customized for them.

Such an amazing story. I mean, that is a story of impact and transformation, and I would love to tell that story. Wow, that's so powerful. Isn't that powerful? It is really powerful. 12 girls. Can I answer that with like, Way different version. That was a good story though, Sarah, but thanks . A way different, a different version of a story that touched me.

Like I'm pretty sure it was TikTok or something that I saw this on. I don't know that it was like a fully, you know, like it was not a New York Times article, it was . Someone had had just self-created their story of they, they were talking about how administrator burnout. And administrator shortage, right?

We talk a lot about the teacher shortage and, and that's real, and we need to support teachers, right? But, but when teachers are unhappy, who do they blame? Admin, right? It, it was just a very well told story. Um, I'll have to go find it about like, is it our, and I'm, when I say our, I'm not putting me in that because I.

Like currently at the building level or anything. But I was, and I think about this and Hayley, I know you were too. Like, is it the building leader's responsibility to carry the, the happiness of all of the teachers or, or to, I mean, I think every building leader needs to elevate morale. That's, that's certainly an important feature, but like, Like who's wait there?

Ralph . Like who's, and, and I think this, that storytelling article for me, like, I was like, that is so true. Because the pressure that exists to, to solve the teacher shortage is try to uplift teachers, but somebody's gotta do it. And who's helping them? Cheer mom. Wow. It's like this, just this chain, this chain of stress and trauma and challenge and.

Whew. This, this profession is not for the faint of heart. Like I think that much is clear. It's not. And you know, I, I definitely got off track from what I planned to ask you today, but I feel like this has been so rich and I'm really grateful both of you we're prepared to pivot. You know, it it, it really speaks to each of your purviews and the perspective you have on.

What's happening right now and what's happening in the future for schools and school leaders, and I'm grateful to be able to talk to you about this. I'm wondering, you know, I don't wanna, I don't wanna wrap up our conversation, but I feel like this is a natural pivot, is like I. What advice, and I'm gonna change it for each of you, given what we, just, what Katie just shared, what advice would you give a school leader, Katie and Sarah, what advice would you give someone entering the edtech space right now, at the beginning of their career or the beginning of their journey?

What would you tell them? I think that that inherently is part of the problem, right? Like the principles don't know what to say. To the teacher, the superintendent doesn't know what to say to the principal. Like, I don't know that if, if somebody knows that, what advice is gonna really move the needle, then I wanna meet 'em.

So if you're listening to this and thought leadership and you have the answer, but I, I think if I, I, I had to summarize like,it's okay to love your job.It's okay to love ing and. Like serving in, in an administrative capacity or whatever role you are because it is so hard and, and, and 100% that is seen and heard, but also like,are we creating an echo chamber by talking about how hard it isand, and it is.

So I, I don't know where the line is there, like it is real. We need to acknowledge that reality. We need to like, support them and, and empathize with that. Meanwhile, I don't know. It's almost manifesting or a self-fulfilling prophecy, right? If you, if you talk about all of the problems, then you're gonna find problems.

Then if you talk about like the great parts of it, like there are great parts of it. And so I guess my advice would be like, yes, be a teacher inter teaching, enter, be an administrator and like it does come with some pretty hard. But it also is a beautiful thing too. So like, can we talk about that? I guess that's my advice.

I love that. I love that. Great. Katie, I, I do actually have some advice for, and we're thi we're talking like people entering EdTech from all aspects of it. In particular, if, if you're an EdTech company entering the space, I think, I think it's easy to approach districts saying, Hey, I know you have so many problems.

This is, we have this great solution for you. This is what we can offer. You we're so great. These are our attributes. These are product features. Look at us instead, stepping back and really thinking about what are the problems facing these districts? How can I listen to the problems that. That they may be experiencing and how can I just offer to help in a way that is, I'm not talking about myself, I'm not talking about my products.

I'm never product forward, and it's really always thinking about what can I offer this, this person, what can I offer this district? What can I offer the industry or this space that where I can help and I can be of service? If you come and lead from. That's that place you're gonna be a lot more successful than talking at people about your product features and why you're the best fit for.

Oh my goodness. This resonates. This resonates so much from so many aspects. I'm really glad you surfaced this idea of like finding and leading and speaking the joy of being an educator. Katie and Sarah, I'm also really glad that you are centering this idea that. Sure you gotta sell your stuff, but like, what's more important is like what a school actually needs and how you can support them.

It's one of the reasons why as soon as I met both of you, I felt really Dr. Like drawn to be , just wanted to be around you as much as possible because it it, you know, if you follow only the news headlines right now, it can be a really confusing place to be in education and edtech. It can be very, very like, wait, are we thinking this thing?

Or is this the big problem? Or is this the big problem or what the money? So I, I'm grateful you both came today on the Learning Can't Wait podcast to share your experiences and your stories. I think we'll be having definite follow up episodes with, one and both of you together and separately and maybe with some other folks, because again, I feel really drawn to just how you share your perspective and opinion.

Thank you so much for doing it here with me today. For our listeners. Thank you, Hayley. So fun to be here. Thanks for inviting us. Thanks. Thanks everybody for joining today.

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