Paymon Rouhanifard: Master scheduling, AI optimization & District efficiency

Hayley Spira-Bauer: Welcome back, everybody, to the Learning Can't Wait podcast. I am so excited to introduce you to a very special guest today. We have the CEO and co-founder of Timely, Paymon, with us here today. Welcome, Paymon!

Paymon Rouhanifard: Thanks so much for having me, Hayley.

Hayley Spira-Bauer: I'm so glad you're here because… not just because you've created a tool that I wish I had when I was an educator, but you've served in many seats in the education ecosphere, and I'm excited to hear your take on a couple of different topics.

Paymon Rouhanifard: Excited it again.

Hayley Spira-Bauer: So before we start with the history, I guess you'll set the stage for us. Can you tell everybody how you came to be the personal and professional version of yourself, please?

Paymon Rouhanifard: Yeah, for me, I thought I was gonna start a career in finance coming out of undergrad. I was a lemming following upperclassmen who I thought really highly of, who were all going to investment banking and private equity, and… I had accepted an offer to do that, and at the last moment, senior year, I heard Wendy Kopp speak, the founder of Teach For America, and I became really inspired by the mission, and I always had a social justice bend, and I just thought to myself, you know, I'm gonna take a couple years off, and teach, and circle back. And that's… that is essentially what happened. I taught for 2 years in West Harlem, New York City, at a middle school, taught 6th grade. But it was like seeing The Matrix, especially that second year in the classroom, and I got really hooked making connections between what was happening in my classroom and really systems-level decisions, that were coming out of the Department of Education, and that really stuck with me. I ended up doing the finance thing for a few years, but I came back full circle, and the way I describe it, all my friends and free thoughts were still connected to education and that experience I had in the classroom, and that was sort of the… the people I was surrounded by, and again, just, like, whenever my mind wandered, it went… it went back to ed policy and those lived experiences. And so I circled back and, and I've spent my career now, in its entirety since then, and education kind of playing different roles, but a bunch of years doing school district work, which really was incredibly formative to the work I'm doing now.

Hayley Spira-Bauer: Yeah, let's touch on that kind of jump into education, out of education, and back to education. So, you know, I often say on the podcast here, for folks that are not familiar, schools are businesses. And so, that financial mindset that you probably gained while working as an analyst and an associate in different financial institutions, I'm imagining played a huge part in the systems-level work you did in New Jersey. Talk to me and, like, share, do you agree with that statement? Like, that schools are businesses? And if so, how did the experiences in finance really, shape the kind of practical lens you took to being a Chief Strategy Officer of Newark and Superintendent of Camden.

Paymon Rouhanifard: It's a really thoughtful question. I would say spending, you know, a few years in finance helped shape more of an analytical framework to decision making, and to… think about resource allocation more strategically, but also really all use cases of data, student achievement data, interim assessment, formative assessment, summative, you name it. And so I was really grateful for that experience to be around just really sharp people who brought that orientation to their day-to-day life. That wasn't always the way I felt the system itself was oriented, but I was also really fortunate that when I came back into education, I was able to join a really incredible effort in the New York City Department of Ed, led by Mayor Bloomberg and Chancellor Joel Klein. To really take a more data-oriented, data-driven approach to school reform. And so, I was able to sort of marry the experiences I had in finance and bring it to a team that really took a similar mindset and approach.

Hayley Spira-Bauer: Looking today, jumping forward, and just thinking about the current climate for federal funding uncertainty, as well as… you know, the drying up of ESSER funds in collaboration with the decline of student enrollment. What's your take on what would be both a conservative but also really thoughtful approach for school leaders to take? As they make big decisions about building budgets that really drive student achievement.

Paymon Rouhanifard: That's a big question. You know. There are a lot of common threads in terms of headwinds. District leaders, coast to coast, are confronting. You know, overall, you know, birth rate decline, enrollment decline across school districts, as the percentage of students that require additional support has increased. And so that is really kind of the conundrum. Overall district enrollment decline as the percentage of students with IEPs and multilingual learners is increasing. And so, you just really have to be intentional about the way you're building your budget. For the most part, the federal funding pressure Has been more… kind of… scary than the actual reality is borne out, right? There's been a lot of noise, you know, ultimately the most critical funding streams have materialized, but folks are spooked. And I think that is, like, the reality, where Spending is as tough as it's ever been because of, like, the fact that district leaders don't really know what's gonna happen, with the… with federal government funding streams, even though, so far, they've been mostly intact. And so, Couple that with, again, declining enrollment, vouchers in a lot of states now, as you know, some charter school expansion in other states. It's a tough… it's a tough scenario, and I think what we've seen that works are district leaders that have a long-term orientation. That aren't going to get completely scared off, but to be really intentional about what they're investing in, and have more of a long-term view. But certainly they have to kind of pare down The aperture, kind of narrow the aperture of, like, what that long-term spend can be on.

[05:00] **Hayley Spira-Bauer:** Which, you know, I'm asking you this question given your experience leading large systems. But, now, you are the co-founder and CEO of an edtech company that is, you know, working to enter into systems. So, let's talk about, first of all, what have you built? What are you building? And then, secondarily, what… are you seeing, as someone walking into schools with a solution, are you seeing that play out? Like, are you seeing the conservative approach from leaders that you're talking to today?

Paymon Rouhanifard: So, I have had the immense fortune of co-founding and launching an organization called Timely. We help middle and high schools build their master schedules using AI optimization technology. And if, you know, you touched on this, Hayley, a tool you wish you would have had. If anyone knows anything about master scheduling, they know it's just incredibly cumbersome, complicated, and literally takes hundreds of hours of time from the spring into the summer. To build, in particular, a middle and high school master schedule for the following school year. It's just a really complex puzzle to put together that is quite literally a math problem to solve. It is a mixed integer linear math problem. And the tools that district leaders and school leaders are using and guidance counselors are using today are really clunky. Student information systems tend to be really hard to navigate and don't have very strong scheduling solutions, and even though districts pay for them, they actually build their schedules more typically using Google Sheets or magnet tiles and whiteboards and bulletin paper, so we're talking about as clunky as it gets. And so, we've just been really thrilled now. In our third year, we're supporting close to 400 schools across 20 states to help assistant principals and counselors lives make them easier, and to really save hundreds of hours of time, and to be able to focus on student achievement by making that process simpler using AI optimization technology. Last thing I'll say, and we can unpack this further if you'd like.The master schedule represents how all school-based staff are interacting with students.any district's budget, 80-85% of the budget is, of course, your personnel. And so the master schedule governs the interactions between your staff and students, and represents almost the entirety of your budget. And so there are a lot of opportunities to use this schedule For radical visibility into your use of time and resources in a way that could allow for budget savings, because there are a lot of inefficiencies that are often captured in the master schedule at a secondary level.

Hayley Spira-Bauer: Yeah, so, first of all, Paymon, you and I spoke about this when we met, but… how I wished this tool existed when I was an AP, and making schedules, which, as you said, is a complex mathematical equation. With many variables that are outside the control of a school leader. So cool that it exists today, but where were you 15, 20 years ago, when I was still leading schools? Where were you?

[10:00] **Paymon Rouhanifard:** Are bad. I was living through the same torturous experience as you.

Hayley Spira-Bauer: You know, it's funny.

Paymon Rouhanifard: And learning the hard way.

Hayley Spira-Bauer: You lived it, which is why it's important to you now. But hilariously, since we spoke, guess what happened? My local district, where my kids go to school. Is under fire right now, because we are one of the few districts on Long Island, where I live, that has a 8-period school day versus a… or sorry. Has a schedule conflict with 9 periods that are 45 minutes instead of 40 minutes, meaning that kids cannot… they have to choose between lunch and then taking an extra elective. And parents are livid, and so they're like, how hard can it be to just redo the schedule for the whole district? And all I could think about was, I wonder if our district uses Timely.

Paymon Rouhanifard: What… can I ask what district?

Hayley Spira-Bauer: We, we were Half Hollow Hills on Long Island. Do you use, do they use Timely?

Paymon Rouhanifard: They don't, but I'm biting my tongue to not go down that rabbit hole. Perhaps we could support them, we can take that offline, but what you just described is so common, where there are so many different demands on a schedule, and different perspectives and inputs into what needs to be true. And that's where the complication and really why it's such an arduous process comes into play, because you're trying to serve all these different constraints and stakeholder groups. And so the beauty of the work we get to do is we make that process easy to navigate. Here are the different constraints you can enter. And it also just allows you to be much more intentional. Perhaps you want to trade off some of those constraints. Because you can run different scenarios and really see how each of those constraints, whether it's a request coming from families, or a request coming from teachers, or a request coming from a district leader, you can really understand how that affects the schedule and how it impacts the percentage of students fully scheduled, in terms of getting the courses they need, the course requests. Fulfilled. And so you can compare and contrast and assess benefits and trade-offs to each of those levers you want to pull to kind of introduce into the master schedule, and really determine what is the most optimal schedule for our school, given our priorities. And to me, that is the most fundamental reality that is not true for most schools and districts.The schedule should reflect your priorities, and that's notIt's not usually the case.

Hayley Spira-Bauer: It isn't. It reflects a variety of other factors, as you named, and it is very complicated. I was giggling to myself as I thought, oh, I wish we had Timely in my district, but also, I don't think parents always understand that, and why would they? It's not like they've ever worked in school operations, but Very often when I hear the mom group, you know, chatter about a topic that many of them are not educators, or actually very few of them are educators in one of my mom chats. I often think to myself, like, oh, well, the actual reality of being a school leader has many forces pushing against it, and in this case. Well beyond their control of the leaders sometimes. So, per my earlier question, now bringing it back to, like, what you're hearing and what you're seeing. How are schools that are making scheduling a priority taking that time, and allocating it? Is it going towards academic intervention? Are we seeing more support for mental health services? What is it that you're hearing as, now that schools have a little bit more support in making really thoughtful schedules with a tool like Timely, where are they allocating their time?

Paymon Rouhanifard: It depends on the school and the district and their priorities, and that's really the beauty of the work we get to do. We don't have a defined point of view on what a great schedule looks like. Because the reality is, the schedule, again, should reflect your unique set of values and priorities. So let's make that a little bit more concrete. There are schools that have really important initiatives. So, one example that comes to mind, teacher leadership and, and, and, and really kind of, Trying to build a pipeline for, new teachers so that they don't, attrit within kind of one or two years, which is a really common challenge, right? Where we're kind of constantly filling various shortages in staffing at the teacher level. And so, this one school district is trying to build a teacher leadership program where some of the more veteran teachers have some additional, kind of, free time to go and observe and support first and second year teachers. And then for those first and second year teachers to… for their prep to align to when they can observe one of the mentor teacher leaders. And building all these things into the schedule is really complicated, because you're kind of creating mini PLCs, you're creating… you know, certain roles that require some additional time in the schedule so they can move and be in other places. And that's unique to that school and that school district. Being able to operationalize that vision, the schedule was the thing that hampered them. They weren't really sure how to figure that out, to have a holistic, kind of, set of strategies in place to ensure first-year teachers were supported, and had the right PLC time, and had the right teacher leaders supporting them. And so we were able to operationalize that. In the schedule. We see other schools where they're trying to rethink the role of the teacher altogether. And to have one full day of prep. For PLC time. And so, really unique model. We're actually seeing this in, you know, different parts of the country now, which has been interesting. That's a hard thing to figure out in the schedule, in terms of, like, well, what are you doing for that fifth day, in terms of the student schedules? How are you programming that? And so, it really, again, depends on the values and the priorities and the goals.

[15:00] **Hayley Spira-Bauer:** Yeah, the unique schedule is something that I feel like I spend a lot of time thinking about and looking at, especially… As it relates to hybrid learning solutions, which is a topic I talk a lot about, how can you maximize teacher talent while also trying to triangulate all of the support staff that exist within a school, so that you really preserve… Quality instruction time, with sometimes school districts that are lacking the number of teachers, certified teachers that they need to be successful. So I do think, too, there is a major need for schools to get creative with their schedules, not because of a desire to Create pathways for attrition, but really because they're struggling to recruit teachers due to geographic constraints and other factors that really put pressure on systems.

Paymon Rouhanifard: Yeah, we see that a lot with our rural district partners.

Hayley Spira-Bauer: Yeah. Yeah, rural… rural America holds a very special place in my heart, and it's… I… you know, much like you, I… I don't know, I went to college in a city, I grew up in the suburbs, and then I taught forever in New York City. That was my whole career. And so, I had very little understanding of what kind of pressures were, you know, within the systems of rural schools, and now I have a very good sense of it. In fact, I'm recording with Melissa Sadorf later today to talk about rural America and the pressures that the schools are seeing as well for the podcast, but it really illuminates the need for technology, technology solutions like Timely, like Fullmind, to be able to overcome the challenges that That are really otherwise insurmountable.

Paymon Rouhanifard: Well said.

Hayley Spira-Bauer: So, Paymon, I know that you are thinking a lot about how scheduling can unlock, you know, more time for student supports, if that's what the school prioritizes, whether it be academic or behavioral. Can you talk to me about, if Timely were to be integrated across the U.S, what would you like to see happen from a previous superintendent's perspective in 5 years as it relates to the current needs across the country?

Paymon Rouhanifard: Honestly, where I… where my head goes first is efficiency. There are oftentimes so many efficiencies in master schedules, and… and so, you know, efficiency is… can be a bit of a loaded term, but, you know, where I'm going with this is. The fiscal pressure, you know, the environment that we're in, what we were describing earlier, federal funding uncertainty paired with enrollment decline, paired with, you know, student needs increasing. There are so many districts right now that are looking at school closures and potential rifts. And look, the reality is,a school closure saves some money, but not as much as most people think.You know, when we were running the numbers on this, sometimes it could be $500,000 to a million dollars per school, and we've got districts that have $90,000, $100 million deficits, and so, ultimately, school closures are a lever that you can pull, but It's really hard, they're obviously super unpopular, as we know, and it's just, like, a really difficult move, where the ROI is, I would argue, relatively low. In the grand scheme of things. Then you look at the master schedule, and again, 80-90% of your budget is captured there. And I remember as a superintendent, especially whenever I would walk through our high schools, I'd always be really confused about going down one hallway and seeing a classroom with 33 students and another one with 6 students. And this… this is a real common reality across districts around the country. And so, within the master schedule, there is this opportunity to be intentional, so that you know, I'm thinking about one of our district partners in Texas, Lubbock, where in the first year of implementing Timely, they didn't change their average class size target. They didn't reduce their course offering to students, and yet they were able to identify 37 vacant positions across 14 schools that they realized they didn't actually need to fill those positions, because they built a more efficient model. And saved north of $2 million through that process. And again, same average class size target as the year before, student choice wasn't impacted, and no teachers were impacted, because these are vacancies. So just straight bottom line inefficiencies that led to budget savings. And we know this to be true around the country. And so, I hope we can help district leaders avoid closures, or, or, you know, close fewer schools, whatever the case might be, because of, like, the opportunity to drive efficiencies. That can also lead to better instructional delivery. This is not about, like, raising average class sizes, it's not that at all. It's about being intentional about what is Truly inefficient. That can lead to better instructional delivery down the road.

[20:00] **Hayley Spira-Bauer:** You've named a couple of different success metrics that you're using, that could have been used in the Lubbock case as an example, to, you know, demonstrate efficacy, and right now there's a big push in EdTech that we have very clear success metrics. We're not spending money on tools that are not necessary, inefficient, ineffective, as budgets decline, and also as people become more reticent to spend any money. Are there other metrics you're also using to measure success of your implementations across districts right now?

Paymon Rouhanifard: We look at two key metrics. The first is the percentage of students fully scheduled, meaning course requests being fulfilled. And so we look at that in two parts, the percentage of core course requests coming from students that are fulfilled. We target 100%, we average 97%. And then we look at electives as well, and that speaks to students' fully scheduled core plus electives. We target 90% or higher, which we very consistently hit. The other metric we look at is time savings, and so, you know, we're averaging around 100 hours of time saved. Per school. And, you know, one way to think about that is if you're… if you're an AP or counselor, that's, like, getting your summer back, and being able to actually, focus on preparing for students and staff instructionally.

Hayley Spira-Bauer: Yeah, no, and that speaks to exactly the question that's kind of going on right now with, with the complaint in my school district about electives, and making sure kids can do both, and have all the things, and be fully scheduled. Because, you know, some parents are really eager to have their kids' schedules be as busy as possible. Which, you know, that's how… that's how some parents roll.

Paymon Rouhanifard: Yeah, totally get that. And by the way, one of the things we're really proud of is, we often help our district partners for the first time to be able to show that they gave their students and staff their schedules before… before the summer. You, like, very often…

Hayley Spira-Bauer: That never happens! I'm literally…

Paymon Rouhanifard: I'll be waiting to the, like, two days before my kids' school starts. Yeah, that's more the norm than not, but we've helped so many of our partners do that, and they get a big feather in their cap, as they should, because that's not an easy thing to do, but we can help them do that.

Hayley Spira-Bauer: That is so cool to think about, too, from an instructional lens, that teachers can… can. I don't know that they always will. But can take the time with their class composition decided and their coursework decided really thoughtfully before school starts to adequately prepare for the… unique needs of kids in their classroom, what coursework they want to move forward with, which ones they may want to spend more time on based on specific interest and or need, like. I can't even imagine having that information so early, like, it really permits, if desired. Educators to spend a lot of time Studying information about their students before the first day of school.

Paymon Rouhanifard: It makes a big, big difference. And certainly a lot of our other partners, like, take the summer and still save time and all those things, but… if you can… if you can get your course requests done earlier in the year, call it around January, February, you know, there's… there's the opportunity to finalize those schedules before the school year is out, and there's just a lot of, sort of, positive ramifications of that, to your point.

Hayley Spira-Bauer: Yeah, and one of the focus… one of the focus I had when I was, still working in schools was on summer, and maximizing students' out-of-school time over the summer, not with boring, repetitive tasks. But with reinforcing content, getting really exciting books in every kid's hand. Like, I just think about how a teacher who knows their class composition for the next year could potentially align kids' reading over the summer with, like, very reinforcing texts that then allowed for shared language on the first day of school. I'm just dreaming right now, Paymon.

[25:00] **Paymon Rouhanifard:** I like it.

Hayley Spira-Bauer: That would be so cool!

Paymon Rouhanifard: I like it.

Hayley Spira-Bauer: Well, you know, I think that it's obvious to you, probably, and our listeners, just how I could see the purpose and intention behind a tool like this, and what value it brings and can bring to schools. I'm curious, though, as a final question, what advice you would give a teacher or a school leader who's just starting out today, both with your knowledge of working in edtech, but also with your deep experience serving in school districts.

Paymon Rouhanifard: I think what I see from a lot of teachers, and this was definitely true of me my first year, where you just sort of, like, experience everything and accept everything as they are. Like, you kind of accept the status quo. It's like, alright, these are the things that are happening, and we now gotta roll with the punches. And, you know, I think if I were to give any advice, it's to… to not accept that. And that's not to say to be a jerk about things, and to always be the person, you know, calling out the issues, and to be the squeaky wheel, but rather, to be intentional about what you're learning, and to think more deeply about what, you know, which of these challenges are systems-related? Which of these challenges could be solved through technology? Which of these challenges could be solved through just better collaboration and communication inside of a school? And I just find that when your teacher's wheels are turning like that, you get such rich information. And they end up becoming, you know, teacher leaders, APs, principals, so on and so forth. But it requires a certain mindset adjustment of, like, constantly thinking about root cause and, like, how can we address those issues, as opposed to, again, accepting them as they are.

Hayley Spira-Bauer: That's really valuable, and it's not a message I hear often on the podcast. Paymon, thank you so much for coming on and sharing both your wisdom, your experience, but also your excitement for what's possible in schools today. It's been a pleasure talking to you.

Paymon Rouhanifard: Thanks for having me, this was really fun.

Hayley Spira-Bauer: And thank you to everybody who tuned in today.