Vriti Saraf: Ed3 DAO, AI in Education, Blockchain, Project Based Learning

Hayley Spira-Bauer: Welcome back, everybody to the Learning Can't Wait podcast. We have a guest on today that I first talked to about joining the podcast nearly three years ago when we first started. So long awaited and so excited to finally have her here to talk about her work, what she's excited about in the education space, and just share a lot of wisdom. So we have Vriti Saraf, the CEO and Co-founder of Ed3 DAO Vriti. Welcome.

Vriti Saraf: Thank you for having me, Hayley.

Hayley Spira-Bauer: I am so eager to get into everything that you are doing in Ed3 DAO, but also just talk about your journey in education. I know it is a fascinating one and I look forward to our listeners hearing all about it.

Vriti Saraf: Sure. So do you want me to start with the journey or start with,

Hayley Spira-Bauer: Yeah, well, we'll start. I have the same first question every time. So the question does get you into the journey. You can interpret it how you want. How did you come to be the personal and professional version of yourself?

Vriti Saraf: Gotcha. So I would say similar to a lot of kids who grew up in the eighties and nineties, schooling just didn't do it for me. I was very disengaged and I went to school to see my friends, but not quite to learn. So I never learned how to learn really. And the first time I learned how to learn was when I was 21 or 22, and I joined Teach For America. And the only reason I joined Teach For America, by the way, was because I didn't know what else to do with my life. And somebody that I had dated had gotten kicked out of the program and I was like, wow, I wonder how hard this program is. Lemme try. Can I get kicked

Hayley Spira-Bauer: Out too? No.

Vriti Saraf: Wow. Yeah. And so I literally applied because I did not know what else to do with my life and I miraculously got accepted. And when I started the program, I had no idea what I was in for. But what ended up happening over the two years was I ended up developing my sense of self and sense of persona as a learner. And I never actually had, I don't think I really was consciously a learner in my younger years. I don't think I, as I said, learned how to learn. But when I was a Teach For America teacher, I finally understood the value of education and the value of understanding of who you are as a learner. And that fundamentally changed my life and who I am today. That's really, I would say Teach For America was the first pivot point that really brought me to who I am today. ([02:35](https://www.google.com/url?sa=E&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rev.com%2Ftranscript-editor%2Fshared%2FESQLYCWYB46SlHRTLXdB0BAA6C3JIX6jNiyQpxHJ-dgJadcDQsjs2CSmUhzdMR6zSUDp_ZypU2sD_0Xh7ox5MLhh_8k%3FloadFrom%3DDocumentDeeplink%26ts%3D155.64)): And of course, I drank all the Kool-Aid and will never leave the education industry because I'm so committed to equity and access to education. So I did Teach For America, then I was a teacher for a bit at that same charter network. I was a dean for a bit. Then I helped them grow from two schools to 15 schools in Brownsville, Brooklyn. And we developed a dean development program and a residency program and all that kind of stuff. But throughout that entire journey, I would say the most important thing was I was focusing on adult development. And it made me understand that adults have so much capacity to learn and change and grow, which is not something that I realized earlier on. And that is really what propelled me to doing what I am today and being who I am today.

Hayley Spira-Bauer: That is really interesting. I love how you realized who you became, who you were as a learner by being a teacher. I wonder, I wonder, do you recall what light bulb moments you had about you as a learner when you were a

Vriti Saraf: Teacher? You know what it was, I think this has to do a lot with grit and growth mindset. So before I became a teacher with teacher America, I often approach things with the perspective that if they're too hard, I will quit. So I didn't have a lot of resilience. I didn't have a lot of grit. In fact, my parents who were very overprotective and very sort of helicoptery were encouraging me of quitting because they were like, well, we don't want you to be in distress or pain. We want you to live an easy life. And so I grew up thinking that, well, it doesn't matter if I complete things. It doesn't matter if I do things that are difficult, things like that, and would Teach For America. I didn't have a choice because if I quit, then I had 30 kids who would suffer if I quit. ([04:35](https://www.google.com/url?sa=E&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rev.com%2Ftranscript-editor%2Fshared%2FeTWVCP7Fr_-6onyIEMHNAhuSBi3Txeu7Bg7G9sojwlYtzusVyyLXLCiGoVUbSPZkhoPNOWHo5KA45b7sv8FHo-dctYI%3FloadFrom%3DDocumentDeeplink%26ts%3D275.41)): So it was the first time where I actually had responsibility over other people and I couldn't let them down. I couldn't just walk away from something just because it was hard and Teach For America was really hard as, and so that I think is really what helped me develop that mindset, which is the grit part, the growth mindset part, and really being able to understand that if you're doing these sort of difficult things, not only are you ensuring that the people around you are able to rely on you, but also you're able to grow as a human. And the way that you saw your kids developing over the course of a year, you saw yourself developing over the course of a year. So my first year as a teacher was a hot mess, and then my second year as a teacher was a complete 180. It was just all the kids from other classes that were having trouble maintaining their discipline, whatever would be sent to my class. ([05:39](https://www.google.com/url?sa=E&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rev.com%2Ftranscript-editor%2Fshared%2FCfFJFCIFVw62kLZA_GLdfo95ITSbNRi_6TnARrKLl6vGeO_8tnyW_XmgpscBK8B_dOjbGQ7XlxNQNeQdVT3didFA4Ww%3FloadFrom%3DDocumentDeeplink%26ts%3D339.22)): I started off with 28 kids in the beginning of the year, and then at the end of the year I had 32 kids. So it's like there were just, my second year just became this sort of huge development moment for me, and I saw the difference between my first year and second year. And that sort of being able to see your own growth over a short period of time is just mindset changing. It really helps you see how much humans can grow. And I think that's one of the biggest misconceptions that adults often have, which is they often say, people don't change or I can't change or I can't grow, or I can't get myself out of a situation, or My job sucks and this is what I'm going to do for the rest of my life, and blah, blah, blah. And I think that sort of fixed mindset is really what holds people back. And I think if you can see yourself grow and develop, then that just changes everything.

[05:00] **Hayley Spira-Bauer:** I have an image in my head of what you're talking about here. So I have pictures of my first year classroom and second year classroom after I set it up, my first year classroom had stuffed animals everywhere, really cutesy pictures everywhere, which by the way, all got destroyed in the first three weeks because I did not know how to manage a classroom. My second year classroom had clipboards for behavior management with student names where they kept their own data. I taught first and I looped to second, and then they added a whole bunch of students in my classes you talked about. And they managed their own behavior charts. They managed their own academic growth charts. Literally everything was data driven led by students, which was an obvious visual of the change between that first and second year. So I can picture it. It is fascinating to me what you say about grit and growth mindset. ([07:22](https://www.google.com/url?sa=E&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rev.com%2Ftranscript-editor%2Fshared%2F6E19vsZaRptl9KIkXt9sPgSA9gPn1yljtplSprD19n4PkQqTeOtm8nEwVKXoGWBgP0HHI0HGabD1QomBSYvV5Ag2sk0%3FloadFrom%3DDocumentDeeplink%26ts%3D442.25)): I think in a lot of ways it was a new concept when you and I are both going through the core for Teach For America and lot of ways education kind of overcorrected this grit and growth mindset situation. And even Carol Dweck herself, the creator of Growth Mindset has said, I actually don't know if I can curse on this podcast, but we've kind of ruined, there's another word I want to use but I won't use it. We've kind of ruined how I intended this to be implemented in students. Have you heard that pushback that she's given? And what would you say now, given that you've had this direct experience yourself into how it's being implemented in schools and education settings today?

Vriti Saraf: Yeah, I've heard that critique of grit for sure, because I think the way that it's been critiqued is that it doesn't take into account students' lived experiences and the context behind how they're operating in life and the sort of backgrounds that they have. And it's a little bit of a privilege thing to sort of talk about with the growth mindset. I haven't heard that critique, but I can see how overcorrection can definitely be an issue because I think with especially the charter world, which is where most Teach For America teachers spent their time, we at first focused on no tolerance models and very rigid models where especially schools like Success Academy or other models that are focusing on college bound and everything. So I can see how that overcorrection could happen. ([08:53](https://www.google.com/url?sa=E&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rev.com%2Ftranscript-editor%2Fshared%2Fq15seMHAbnJKojEaWGHcs3fUD4I0D9jKWvWdNo8rVNZG_7xB5yoVqD3Dt5G7XwB2gLvzOyzkw4Am2wKz4rwuDVIZVns%3FloadFrom%3DDocumentDeeplink%26ts%3D533.06)): I think what you said about your classroom the second year where the kids were sort of agentic and they were able to manage their own work and time and things like that, I think that's really where the magic happens. And I think that's where schools are starting to realize that's what they need to over index on. So right now, if we say we want to teach kids how to embody the growth mindset or embody grit, I think we're doing too much handholding and we're actually doing too much guidance and linear engagement instead of allowing kids to explore those concepts on their own, which is why I think charter schools are often finding that the kids are very successful in the school itself. Then when they go off to college, they're not able to survive on their own because they don't have a teacher holding their hand and guiding them through that process. ([09:46](https://www.google.com/url?sa=E&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rev.com%2Ftranscript-editor%2Fshared%2FhFaYb0hFP8rKlpwCPDNSf7IWt-zgQ4TN7x7Q_-aqhPgamGTx4PfMjV_mdHVAUeIIFz_9LHczIj-RuTmwZdH46qukaCY%3FloadFrom%3DDocumentDeeplink%26ts%3D586.44)): And so I think what I would say about the growth mindset piece isgrowth mindset has to come hand in hand with agencyagency and so does grit. And I would say if we can create systems in our classroom and instill the value of agency and allow kids to be able to make their own mistakes and make their own decisions and be able to, they're at their own developmental speed, sort of attain the mindsets of grit and growth mindset, then I think that would sort of avoid any of the over indexing because every kid would be able to move into agency through those concepts instead of focusing specifically on those concepts.

[10:00] **Hayley Spira-Bauer:** Yeah. I'm going to switch us a little bit because you mentioned in your introduction that Teach For America was your first pivot point, which means there were more. So what was the next pivot point and how did that change your path?

Vriti Saraf: Yeah, so I spent 10 years in Brownsville, Brooklyn, and it was an incredible experience because I got very close with the community. I really understood the struggles of low-income students and of the obstacles that we often experienced when attaining education and all that kind of stuff. But my world was very much like Brownsville, Brooklyn for 10 years. That's all I knew. And the charter world was all I knew. So then the next pivot point happened when I actually moved into a startup that was building independent schools around the world. And so the goal was to start 30 schools around the world, and we ended up starting two schools, one in Jiaxing, China and one in DC. And I was the global head of professional development. And so I actually got to travel around the world learning from best school models and spend a lot of time in China, spent a lot of time in India and Europe and the US learning about what's out there. ([11:42](https://www.google.com/url?sa=E&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rev.com%2Ftranscript-editor%2Fshared%2FIF6UusNYiLdk2V4BNib_e3nh-Ph-cq9cdHpIp4Og8G7sJvCMG4bCgEZxKm37j8CqRIfjTxpyRCPInDGHU638L7zdJmM%3FloadFrom%3DDocumentDeeplink%26ts%3D702.36)): And I had never known until then a concept like Reggio Emilia existed, which is crazy because I spent 10 years in education and I didn't even know that that pedagogy even existed. And so when I started learning about Reggio Emilia and then Montessori and about phenomena based learning and project based learning and emergent curriculum and all that, it just completely changed my perspective about what kids are capable of and how we can actually develop systems for kids that are much more human and much more aligned to how they should be growing through developmental needs. And then just through the environment, all that kind of stuff. And so that really changed my perspective. That was a huge pivot point for me. And I realized that there's so much out there in the education space that most educators just don't know about, and there isn't enough connection points between educators globally where they can actually teach each other and learn from each other. ([12:44](https://www.google.com/url?sa=E&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rev.com%2Ftranscript-editor%2Fshared%2FBIo6ze-zGjYGJEgujVBSPPSrw3XnOMMBNWEOqMtpLz4AGSka0G7td4txDDWDR6oJFOZUt1rfBmVkM0ga4ZSfxbvWy1Y%3FloadFrom%3DDocumentDeeplink%26ts%3D764.83)): And then the other thing that I learned through that experience was no one in education was using emerging technology. And I was sort of a techno enthusiast from the get go. And I've been sort of really into, I'm a first adopter of a lot of technology and I am very interested in learning about what's going on in the ecosystem. And when I learned that other industries are benefiting so much from emerging tech, but education just, it just sort of was a light bulb in my head where I was just like, okay, well educators are doing incredible things around the world, but they're not connecting with each other and they're not using emerging technology in ways that are actually furthering the profession and furthering the industry. And so there needs to be a way for them to connect with each other. And that's when I started my first venture, which was k20 Educators, that led into what is now Ed3 DAO now.

Hayley Spira-Bauer: I remember when k20 Educators launched, this is when we first met, and I remember you had a major event. First of all, you were doing a lot of educating for educators about some of this emergent technology, which I'd love for you to talk about in a minute. I remember watching your videos and being like, I just don't even understand some of these topics. Is this for me? And it was for me, it was for everyone. Let's dive into that a bit because I think there's stages here. There's what you're talking about occurring when you started k20 Educators, but then there's also this rapid proliferation of media intervening on tech creation and tech adoption. Today, EdWeek right now I think is doing a weekly series where they survey thousands of educators on their AI acceptance and implementation in classrooms, and it's a hockey stick. You're seeing this adoption of, I wouldn't say it's emergent anymore, it's emerged. But I am curious because I do think you have been at the forefront of some things that didn't go hockey stick and probably have a really interesting perspective about that.

Vriti Saraf: Yeah. Well, I have a lot to say about what you just said. So I have a lot to say about AI in terms of adoption and the way that educators are actually adopting this and the sort of TLDR is, I don't think it's the right direction, but we could talk about that later. But let's go back to the emerging technology that we started with. So we started with Web3. We started with blockchain and AR/VR, and we really wanted educators to understand the opportunities that are out there that they could leverage in order to create more engaging classrooms that are more relevant to students. And here's the thing with blockchain, blockchain is an underlying infrastructure that is quite difficult to understand and difficult to access for the layman. And so when we started, we started educating people about blockchain, but we did it in a way where people, where we wanted folks to understand the principles behind it and not necessarily the technology. ([15:48](https://www.google.com/url?sa=E&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rev.com%2Ftranscript-editor%2Fshared%2F0s9SEgctpnzkSFTY278Dt34jRGlOf-2U6sKC8ux0NrQINGUEcdt_g0CWpS_oIGQEAvr_Glep4UiEyfpiXYyjVGEGTVo%3FloadFrom%3DDocumentDeeplink%26ts%3D948.95)): So for example, if you're using your phone, you don't understand how your phone actually works, you don't understand all the chips inside of it, all that kind of stuff, but you know how to actually leverage it in order for it to be useful to you. And so that's what we were trying to get people to understand, which is like you don't need to understand the ins and outs of blockchain, but it would be beneficial if you understand why blockchain is so important. Now with blockchain, the hype has been around cryptocurrency, which is one use of blockchain. And that cryptocurrency, because it's so volatile and because there's so many bad players in it and there's so many scam artists, that's one of the reasons why it has sort of fallen out of the spotlight for educators, especially because educators obviously are anybody is obviously wary of, we don't want to be scammed into things. ([16:41](https://www.google.com/url?sa=E&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rev.com%2Ftranscript-editor%2Fshared%2FsezWoRro1rA4c0-EiKNbYIeELOBEtXBG5rHslqJzQ0ABGeRYGpL2t1dIWMoX3UCkfjW0z5r_mg6WGYQa1DMMDXS-q4M%3FloadFrom%3DDocumentDeeplink%26ts%3D1001.54)): And so with blockchain, there's a lot of potential and a lot of utility, especially with the combination of AI, but it hasn't gotten the spotlight or it hasn't continued to get the spotlight because cryptocurrency, which is one utility of blockchain, is what's getting all the spotlight. So obviously with the new administration, that's going to change, but that's another conversation for another time. But yeah, so I would say the thing about blockchain is we still deeply believe in the decentralized and sort of self sovereignty nature of it. And we still believe in blockchain for things like micro-credentialing for things like data ownership for things even with AI, understanding what's real and what's not by putting on a blockchain so that it's immutable and isn't replicable and corruptible. All of those things I think would be really helpful to the AI movement actually. But we totally understand that educators aren't quite ready to dive into it because the direct utility isn't quite there yet. We are exploring projects around micro-credentialing and what's called a learner employment record, which is basically a digital resume that lives on chain. So that's something that we're actually actively pursuing. But other than that, we are putting a little bit of a Hold on that. Yeah, go ahead.

[18:00] **Hayley Spira-Bauer:** No, I was going to say, are you disappointed? Do you feel like this high potential pathway, I mean, disappeared before your eyes as a viable source for, I mean, not completely disappeared because you're obviously naming methods in which you're using it, but what you thought it could be? Is that disappointing to you or how do you feel?

Vriti Saraf: So here's the thing, the visibility in media to the masses is very different than how it's actually being invested in and actually used blockchain. And the Web3 world is still getting more investment than any other technology aside from AI. And it's still on the forefront of many, many industries minds, and it's still sort of being used in a lot of different ways. It's just not in the spotlight anymore because AI has taken the spotlight. So I don't think it, it's actually declined at all. I think it's actually Okay, cool. So

Hayley Spira-Bauer: I mean, I think I told you right before recording, I was like, cool, you said asked me anything. I was like, cool. I just read an article that's like Web3 is dead. Should we bury it? And you're telling me, no, actually investments are still high in this space. It's just not getting the same media headlining, which we could talk about that again on a whole other episode that AI is

Vriti Saraf: No, that's exactly

Hayley Spira-Bauer: Right. I understand. Corrected.

Vriti Saraf: Yeah. So Web3 isn't dead actually. It's actually continuing to, and if you understand what Web3 is, which is basically the evolution of the internet, it was never manifested in the first place. It's going to take time for us to create a decentralized ecosystem where everybody can access the web. That's what Web3 is. That's going to be years from now. But I would say the movement towards Web3, I think has been, the hype around it is definitely been decreased, but it's also now much more niche. And it's focusing specifically on the utility of blockchain in different industries and different concepts as well as AR/VR, AR/VR is still being explored in a lot of different ways, and it's actually becoming more popular among homeschooling and micro schooling and universities that are trying to create simulations for workforce. All those things are actually increasing. So it is just that AI is really sexy right now and everybody wants to talk about it, but that doesn't mean the other things aren't happening still.

[20:00] **Hayley Spira-Bauer:** Sure. I really appreciate you calling out a couple different ideas here, including AR/VR, Dr. Muhsinah Morris from Morehouse has ([20:39](https://www.google.com/url?sa=E&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rev.com%2Ftranscript-editor%2Fshared%2FIbVLRmUpwFSs7Fy0mwbkNwYC12OABpTmM_wJQ2sAcfMvdjjteCwb8p8qSQ-pDg8IvKQt4MJ3xC-vkjz6PefOz5M1yKo%3FloadFrom%3DDocumentDeeplink%26ts%3D1239.36)): Been on the podcast twice, and I mostly have her on kind of like you, so I can learn. I'm like, this is not an area I feel expert, proficient, et cetera. I know that if I'm interested in learning more, I want my guests to feel that way too. I think there is a certain audience that tunes into the Learning Can't Wait podcast that's really school-based. And the now, as much as we want to talk about the future, there's a lot of practicality in learning what's a tool or a strategy or an idea that's happening elsewhere that I can implement here and now, whereas the conversation you're having and Dr. Morris are having are also, like you said, we're building roads. These roads are not finished and in some years time will have more deepened understanding as a society, but also more application potential.

Vriti Saraf: And I think that's actually a really great segue into AI because AI right now is being experienced on both spectrums. So the one spectrum that you named is how do we survive right now? How do we just continue what we're doing, but do it in a way where teachers aren't burning out, where teachers actually have the capacity to be able to provide instruction that's of quality, all that kind of stuff. So that's one way, and in my mind, what's happening and what I've observed is that's really about maintaining the status quo. And I understand how that might be both problematic, but also just the reality where educators just need to just survive because the burnout rate is just so intense. And then on the other side is how are you actually using AI to enhance the profession, to enhance the field, to actually take it to the next level of transformation? ([22:25](https://www.google.com/url?sa=E&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rev.com%2Ftranscript-editor%2Fshared%2FZehzqFrts3FtWEHuldf87YnXFW3V1BojpbbfhEQjnNuS7PaQb5w6rlgBjACCoF_j9zVTLsNSozd_V24vB6Eykikcd3s%3FloadFrom%3DDocumentDeeplink%26ts%3D1345.03)): And so those two are unfortunately not balanced perspectives of AI right now. I think there's more maintaining the status quo than there is sort of advancing. And so that's one of the things that we're really thinking about. As you said, we have the privilege to be able to talk about and think about and do things that are more on the forefront and building roads and not necessarily maintaining the status quo because we're not in the classroom. And that is a very wonderful privilege to have. But it's also, I completely understand that that's separated from the reality of the everyday teacher

Hayley Spira-Bauer: And someone needs to do it right. I think what I've, because I'm adjacent to AI and the movement that's happening right now, and I'm a consumer of technology and I'm using it in my everyday work, and I'm interviewing people all the time who are deeply embedded in this. My observation is that we got thrown into the development of a new technology that really disrupted conversation, I'll say conversation and not necessarily practice because the data tells us that it didn't actually disrupt teacher practice for a couple months. There was a lag, there was a lot of hype, a lot of conversation, but disruption didn't really happen. And now as you're saying, it's still super service level. It's almost like we need people to tell us. Us being teachers, we need people to tell us, cool, here's where you are. It's like scaffolding. Here's where you are, here's where you can go, what you need to do to get from where you are to where you're going. Somebody needs to design and develop that.

Vriti Saraf: No, that's exactly right. And here's the thing, it's actually much closer than we think it is, and it's actually much easier to access than we think it is. The biggest problem I'm seeing with AI is actually in the low hanging fruit and the easy access. And then also the AI trainers can, sorry, can you give some examples of that? What's an example of something you think

Hayley Spira-Bauer: Is low hanging that?

Vriti Saraf: So a low hanging fruit is using ChatGPT to generate a lesson plan that is a very low hanging fruit. That's the first thing that AI trainers who are claiming that they're experts because they know how to use ChatGPT, that drives me crazy. Hayley, like somebody saying, I am an AI guru, or I am an AI expert because I know how to use ChatGPT, or I've been using it for six months. It's like, that does not make you an expert, but fine. And so that's a low hanging fruit and what a lot of trainers are doing, because it's such a new technology and because it's so easy to access, I think they're creating PDs and they're creating experiences for teachers where teachers experience these tools and they're like, wow, this is such a great way to save so much time. And that sort of emotional feeling, that sort of success and that instant gratification is what I think AI trainers are sort of banking on and making a lot of money off in these trainings. ([25:38](https://www.google.com/url?sa=E&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rev.com%2Ftranscript-editor%2Fshared%2Fa3u0XzEI5BgjVbuwky6mL01Z73A_dAC60GnoCuEF7BNUDdrevnpkWfI7QkYy7tOLXHgH6no7gpH1gfdxRHBhJmLPxJs%3FloadFrom%3DDocumentDeeplink%26ts%3D1538.93)): And they're just like, yeah, we'll teach you how to save so much time. We'll teach you how to use ChatGPT and MagicSchool AI and all that kind of stuff to do your assessments and provide feedback to students and all that kind of stuff. But the problem there is that even if it is exposing educators to new technology, it's not teaching them the right habits that are actually going to improve their quality of instruction. And that's one of the biggest problems. And so when I say that it's actually easy to move forward from that, the thing that I mean by that and the thing that we're doing is we really need to embed it in pedagogy. So it's not about, Hey, here's a tool, an AI tool that will teach you how to develop a lesson plan faster. It's more like, Hey, are you implementing project-based learning? ([26:25](https://www.google.com/url?sa=E&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rev.com%2Ftranscript-editor%2Fshared%2FMauWT73xgJIWzMocI-Ns4aDdZoEzBqC2hYYGHwm6W29qSgk3MOg8UI7ziBTnfXDc2vr1oIeMJFF5eepki9CiO10g-dg%3FloadFrom%3DDocumentDeeplink%26ts%3D1585.07)): Let's go through the PBL cycle and let's actually find very purposeful moments where you can actually integrate an AI tool that will help you actually enhance your practice of PBL and then actually use AI in a broader and more purposeful context. And so that is the shift that needs to happen in order for us to be really purposeful with this technology. But right now what's happening is, let's be real.A teacher who doesn't know how to lesson plan well is going to do it faster with ai, but it's still going to be garbage.So it's like we have to help educators understand the fundamentals and the pedagogy first before they actually embed AI into their practice. But it is too easy. It's too easy to access. And AI trainers are just like, yeah, let's do it. And it's basically creating these bad habits that are again, maintaining the status quo and not actually improving the profession.

[27:00] **Hayley Spira-Bauer:** Before I do every podcast, I put my guest name in as part of my prep, and I'm like, give me a little bio of this person. I go on LinkedIn, I do a couple different sources and Vriti, when I put your name in this morning, it literally said, Vriti works at Fullmind and then gave my bio. And I was like, I literally wrote back, no, you have the wrong person. You've actually used my bio. And I was like, here are some blurbs about go search better silly example. But I use it often to just validate and verify conversations I'm about to have. It's easy and it is not perfect.

Vriti Saraf: Yeah, no, it is not perfect. And I think one of the things that I've been talking about for a year now is how AI compares to the cognitive abilities of humans. And I think that's one of the things that we really need to understand as teachers, especially for ourselves, but also for our students. And so last year I mapped AI to Bloom's Taxonomy and Bloom's has gotten a lot of controversial sort of discussion about whether it needs to be linear or spiral or whatever, but regardless, it's still a pretty solid cognitive framework. And so when I was mapping it, what I learned was that at the very bottom, you've got remembering, and obviously AI is way better than humans at remembering. You can hold trillions of piece of data, but then when it gets to understanding, which is it's a second level up and Bloom's Taxonomy, AI falls apart. ([28:53](https://www.google.com/url?sa=E&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rev.com%2Ftranscript-editor%2Fshared%2Fz8hKp-kRQlL2yMvyyiRMKPKb1NI90Zk4hYQHvcivuV8gFGt0YJVPCsef5LDgT0ozZ5436WhqmJMxtWW0NvfZkKe9PIA%3FloadFrom%3DDocumentDeeplink%26ts%3D1733.49)): And it's for the same reason that you couldn't get the appropriate bio for me is because AI isn't making meaning, right? AI is basically taking the data that it has and creating some algorithmic connections and basically spinning out a pattern for you, and it's not actually creating any sort of evaluation or judgment or meaning making that humans can actually do. And so you were able to very quickly say, no, that's actually not her, that's actually my company. Whereas AI wouldn't be able to do that if they didn't have the right data set. It didn't have the right data set. And so that's one of the things that we really need to understand because are you familiar with the concept of logical fallacies?

Hayley Spira-Bauer: Yes. Explain it for me. I don't know it. Go ahead, please.

Vriti Saraf: So basically logical fallacies are flawed arguments that used invalid reasoning. And so with AI, oftentimes we'll over index on the response if we think that it's right, and then we'll continue building on that response by prompting and sort of continuing to get more data from it. But the problem is if you're starting from a false starting point, and that logical fallacy is called a false premise fallacy, if you're starting from a false starting point, then every conclusion you're making after that starting point is also false. And so with AI, that happens quite often where you're getting a response and let's say it named a different company and it wasn't your company, you didn't recognize it. You were like, that could be right. You basically started asking it more questions, and now it's building an entire profile that is completely wrong. And so that making meaning and that understanding is what's really important for us to do and from our perspective and Ed3 DAO, we really think the meaning making should happen from the pedagogical context.

[30:00] **Hayley Spira-Bauer:** Yeah, I am thinking about the extrapolation of this as it relates to how we next inform teach kids about technology, emerging technologies, AI, I've had a couple people on talking about graduate programs and how they can be teaching teachers to be teaching students. All of our careers are going to be drastically my kids' careers, I have an eight and a 5-year-old, their jobs might not even exist today, the ones that they wind up pursuing. How do you, I'm going to ask this as my final question. We are nearing the end of our time and tell me if you like this twist on it. I asked a similar question at the end of our episode, but I'm going to twist it for you based on what we've talked about here and the logic path I'm taking, but what advice would you give teachers and even graduate programs who are thinking about the careers that don't yet exist that are based on this emerging technology? I'm going to use your term about teaching kids. How do they prepare students for a world that hasn't yet been built?

Vriti Saraf: Yeah. I'll answer this in two ways. I'll answer this from the perspective of my organization Ed3 DAO, and then I'll answer this from the perspective of a mom to be love it from the perspective of the organization, I think we know that there is evergreen research backed pedagogy that really works for kids. If we think about the Reggio Emilia as a Montessori, as a PBL is a phenomenon based learning, the UDL restorative practices design thinking. All of these frameworks have worked for ages and have actually developed really great ways for people to think about things that are very critically and very in an overview that really helps you understand the world at large. And so I think one of the things is, yes, you should use technology because you need to keep up with the world around you, but embed that technology into the pedagogy and really understand how that technology is really helping you move the pedagogy itself. So embed the use of your AI in the specific context of the empathy stage of design thinking or in project development in PBL or in understanding world context and phenomenon based learning. So if we can make sure that educators are understanding this pedagogy that I think it's going to be a much easier sort of, not a much easier, but a much more purposeful and a much more effective way to use technology. So that's sort of from the organizational perspective.

Hayley Spira-Bauer: Can I jump in there for one second?

Vriti Saraf: Yeah.

Hayley Spira-Bauer: It reminds me of the conversation that I used to have with teachers about teaching division differently. Don't just teach the kid to do the steps. You taught them. They have to understand the foundation. It just reminds me of that. I don't know why it's not anything groundbreaking, but I remember the conversation so well, and now I have my own kid going through it and he's like, mom, just show me the steps. I'm like, no, dude. You have to understand what division, you need to understand

Vriti Saraf: The fundamentals

Hayley Spira-Bauer: So that you can thrive long term.

Vriti Saraf: That's exactly right. If you understand the fundamentals, and you can definitely understand how to apply that context to anything. In fact, one of the things that we all often talk about at our organization is in order for students to be agentic and critical thinking and fulfilled, we also need to make sure teachers are agentic critical thinking and fulfilled. And the PD that's being offered to teachers is very different than what they're expected to teach in the classroom. So if we're wanting to teach fundamentals to students, we need to teach fundamentals to teachers as well. So that's sort of a really important thing that needs to happen that just isn't right across the board. So that's the organizational perspective from my mom to be perspective, because I have a month left until I produce a baby girl. The thing that I've been thinking a lot about because I've been in education for over 15 years is what kind of education do I want to provide my kids? ([34:46](https://www.google.com/url?sa=E&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rev.com%2Ftranscript-editor%2Fshared%2F4pk0wZqcobOB9Mcu9ihcWBNV_blv5Arz2HtP9S6XJscBUoxpxxa2RrInsOoFj4CoTIRvhdV1DJZdcqGRsbu6UjZ10G0%3FloadFrom%3DDocumentDeeplink%26ts%3D2086.07)): And the truth is thatschooling is only as effective as the experiences that the student has with their teacher and the activities in it.So it's like it doesn't matter if it's a public school or a private school or a charter school or whatever it is, as long as there's caring teacher in the classroom as well as activities that are sort of pushing certain competencies and the competencies that I have identified that I want my kid to have is actually pretty limited. I want my kid to have critical thinking, right? Critical thinking is probably the most important competency that they could have because it doesn't matter if they're studying math or literacy or social, whatever it is, if they can critically think about those concepts and be able to apply them to different things, then they are going to be invincible essentially, right? They're going to be able to do and learn anything. ([35:36](https://www.google.com/url?sa=E&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rev.com%2Ftranscript-editor%2Fshared%2FH7W4iWHIKK5JYhVkZHSNNnKAgum095vh57QSGqQhypsPkL_SfTfILXyBpm29IsoVOMl1xsuMDu_hTYrN5AHLRgKWw6U%3FloadFrom%3DDocumentDeeplink%26ts%3D2136.77)): That's the first thing. The second thing is self-awareness. So being able to understand and reflect on who you are, how you know it, and how you learn best. Those are the things that will actually allow students to be able to have more agency. And the third one is social awareness. So being able to understand and empathize with people around you and being able to understand what the world is. So those are the three things that I think if we continue focusing on critical thinking, social awareness, self awareness, those are I think, the most important qualities that we can embed into education.

[35:00] **Hayley Spira-Bauer:** Great. You have been so incredibly awesome to talk to. I already have seven more episodes in mind that I want to have you back to do. Thank you so much for educating me and our audience about so many topics and just for being so unabashed about where we are, where we need to go, and how you're working to do that.

Vriti Saraf: I appreciate that Hayley, and I love listening to your podcast, so I really appreciate being here.

Hayley Spira-Bauer: Thank you. That's so kind of you to say, and maybe one day soon you'll be listening to it with your little girl. Congratulations. I'm so excited for you to have a kid. Thank you everybody for tuning in and we'll be back again soon with another great episode. I.