Ellen Sherratt: Education Policy, Teacher Shortage, Teacher Salaries, Teacher Salary Project

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Welcome to the Learning Can't Wait podcast an iTutor production at iTutor. Our vision is to ensure every child has access to education regardless of circumstance. Each episode, we will be joined by Pathfinders within and around the education space who are bringing about transformational. On behalf of deserving students, I am your host, Hayley Spau.

Welcome back everybody. I am so excited for you to meet today's guest, someone who, who's work you may be reading about in the news right now, A hot button issue. It is Ellen Sherratt. She is the board president of the Teacher Salary Project. Ellen, welcome to the Learning Can't Wait podcast. Thank you, Hayley.

I'm so glad to be. I'm so excited to have you here. As I told you when I first met you, I have been very much fangirling about the kind of media attention being given to this topic that you are championing alongside some other really incredible people. And in a second, I'll be really excited to dive into the work, why people like I am paying attention and what has been happening, over on the hill and around the space of education as it relates to the teacher's salary.

But first I would love for you to answer the question I always ask my guests. That helps to contextualize a little bit of how we got to where we are, which is Ellen. How did you get to be the professional and pers personal version of yourself? My goodness. So it started when I was little. I just was always.

Deeply concerned about everything, about every problem in our society, and always wondering what we were gonna do about everything from teenage pregnancy to gun violence and climate change. And it just was so clear from those earliest days that education was, was everything. That education is just the, the key to.

a prosperous, flourishing society and, and the best life for everybody. And when I, when I started college, I wanted to, to kind of dive into why we as a society aren't investing in education in the ways that we clearly need to. And so I studied economics and there was exposed to a class on the economics of education.

Where it became crystal clear that the research backs the importance of teachers above any other school-based factor for influencing student success. And so then the question that I just couldn't get out of my head was, well, why can't we recruit and retain the teachers that we need? And coming from that economics perspective, why can we not seem to pay.

Teachers what we need to pay them in order to recruit and retain enough great teachers for every single student. And, that led me on a journey to do my doctorate. I went to Oxford and did a dissertation. Looking specifically at that question of over the, the decades and over the centuries, really. Why have we been unable to pay our teachers?

And, that's a, a longer question to answer that I won't dive into right now, but it's been guiding my career ever since. So I, I completed my degree, came back to my hometown Chicago, and started working in the organization that seemed to do the most locally, but at. Based locally, but at the national level in education policy.

at the time that WA was American Institutes for Research and for a decade, I was able to immerse myself in the research on teacher workforce policy and a little bit on teacher pay to the extent that that, that came up in my work. But it was just always underlying every single project, every research study, every every consulting project that we had, it was just, you know, Mind was focused on what are the implications for teacher salaries?

And then I learned about the teacher salary project, and at the time, this was 2010, they had just launched this film American teacher that spoke directly to the impact of our country's. Policy of, of paying teachers so far below their market rate and the impact that that was having on, on teachers' abilities to be their best selves in the classroom, be there for their students in the ways that they wanted to be and to stay in, in the classroom as a teacher.

And, my organization held a screening of the American Teacher Documentary. Anyone who hasn't seen it should definitely go download that. It's a great film narrated by Matt Damon. It tells the story of four incredible teachers and their journey with teacher salaries. And, I, and I was able to meet Ninive Calegari, the amazing co-founder and c e o of the Teacher Salary Project as our organization held a like.

A screening and focus group conversation about the. I said, oh my gosh, we have to talk more. I'm obsessed with this topic of teacher pay. How can I help? And so she and I connected and I wound up taking a short sabbatical for my work to lead this governor's challenge where the teacher's salary project was trying to.

Get governors to make a statement about the importance of teacher salaries. The idea being that that would enable and inspire more of the frankly, scary conversations that need to happen at the local level across 15,000 school districts in our country. We thought if the governors are saying that this matters, The school board members will know that, that their governors have their back and might be more inclined to, to raise this issue of higher teacher pay, despite the price tag involved, despite the tough conversations about performance based pay and raising taxes versus relocating resources.

And, and that was just, just the most exciting work I ever had done. So just stayed involved with the teacher salary project, was able to join their board of directors. And then, two years ago with the administration being so supportive of higher teacher salaries, decided to really dive in and, and work.

Not full-time, but but close to it. Volunteering my time for the teachers salary project and it's just been the best, most meaningful work I could imagine. I love when there's a true North Star for folks. You know, it's, it's fine if there isn't. It's great when people meander through their careers and maybe later on post facto identify a thread.

But hearing your story, Ellen, it's really clear that you quickly latched on to a particular topic and, and explored it from different angles. And, you know, I named at the top of the, the episode. It's very much true that folks in the media are talking a lot about teachers salaries. Just, in November of 2022, Matt Craft and Melissa Lyon from, Annenberg Working Papers put out a.

Working paper on the prestige of the profession of teaching, and they basically, their conclusion was the current state of the teaching profession. This is direct quote, is at or near its lowest levels in 50 years. And so not only are researchers and e econom, excuse me, economists paying attention. The media's paying attention.

Obviously school leaders are paying attention. And you know, part of the many contributing factors that are causing this decrease in prestige. We have teacher pay and so it is unsurprising that the teacher's salary project is really gaining momentum right now. So why don't you tell us, obviously the initial early project was the release of this film, American teacher.

Now there's many, many more efforts that are really gaining momentum and attention from the teacher salary projects. Tell, tell us, talk to me a little bit about those. It's just amazing what leaders, when they do and say the right thing, what power they can have. Because as it does start at the top and at at the end of the day, you know, president Biden.

Vice President Harris when she was running for president two, they campaigned on higher teacher salaries and then they've been vocal about the importance of this since assuming Office Secretary Cardona as well has been vocal each, you know, month it seems that some in some other form or new initiative, he's amplifying the importance of paying teachers comparably to.

Similarly educated professionals, and when our nation's top leaders are doing that, it inspires people. I mean, it inspired me to stop working at my job. It inspired me to forego my income and dedicate. My time and expertise to this issue of, of teacher salaries. And it no doubt has inspired so many others to do the same.

And so I think that's why we're then seeing legislators like Representative Wilson and now and Representative Bowman introducing the American Teacher Act and Senator Bernie Sanders introducing the forthcoming Pay Teachers Act. But even before, Well, we at the Teacher salary project started doing two years ago was this teacher salary champion campaign, and it was, you know, very much inspired by the secretary and the president and the first lady and the vice president all calling for higher teacher pay.

We said, let's just get this course of support. We know from the data that three quarters of the country want to see teacher pay increase. That figure is probably much higher among. Thoughtful, like educated among leaders, I should say, among leaders who've gotten, you know, to their roles and have been thinking about, about issues deeply.

And let, and I know almost everyone I speak to thinks this is incredibly important. Let's make that loud and clear. And so we asked leaders and people of all stripes and colors in our country to provide a quote as to why they think teacher pay needs to increase. And we created media cards with their photo.

And we're quote, and we just put that out there. And so we had two former US Secretaries of Education, Arne Duncan and John King sign on the CEOs of almost every education nonprofit at the national level. We had Craig, the founder of Craigslist, like dozens and dozens of state teachers of the year, and seven national teachers of the year, a few CEOs of of corporations and, and then people of, of all walks of life, parents and students, and of course teachers and principals putting these, these quotes out there.

And our hope was that that would inspire and enable more convers. At every level among voters and taxpayers and, and school board members and teachers themselves. You know, just, just taking that, that leap to, to have the conversations that, you know, they, in their heart know they wanna be having with the people who, you know, they need to have them with.

And I, I think that's been it. I I just think it's amazing when people do, you know, take that little risk to lead and, you know, like, what, what kind. Impact that can have. And I, you know, of course, haven't been part of all of those conversations, but can only trust that all of those leaders putting themselves out there to, to say that they think teacher paintings to increase led to all the conversations that now have led to the national legislation as well as over 20 governors, including 14 Republican governors committing to higher teacher salaries and 25 pieces of legislation at the state.

Yeah, and you know, for folks that are maybe unfamiliar on the Teacher Salary project website, there is on the resource center, an actual United States map where you can see what is the average salary of a teacher in the United States. Now, average, of course, meaning that it's a. It's not the highest rate.

It's not the lowest rate, but it's right in the middle putting together a summative amount of all of the total teacher salary. So you have some states that are at $48,000 and you have other states that are at $87,000 at the highest then, and then you have a whole smattering of states somewhere in the middle.

And so, the large call to action teachers need to be paid more. As you named in the initiative with the Icon Cards, people naming why it's important to them, there are a whole smattering of reasons why it's important. Today we are seeing a, of course, regionalized, teacher shortage, and one of the main factors that teachers cite in their exodus is that they're simply not getting paid enough.

So let's talk a little bit about this federal legislation. That the teacher's salary project is championing what happened on January 25th, 2023 this year. That really is, is catching a lot of people's eye that I know you're really proud of and is, is really becoming, central focus for the work that the organization is doing today.

Yeah, so it's a great point, Hayley, that teacher pay varies dramatically from state to state, and then within states it varies so much from urban to suburban to rural areas and just across regions within a state. But nevertheless, we decided to put a stake in the ground and say that we think anyone who is working as a teacher in the United States should be able to expect a salary of at least $60,000.

Now we know $60,000 is offensively low in places like New York City in San Francisco. And at the same time, it's unrealistically high in certain communities where there's not a single person in the entire town who's earning $60,000. So we recognize that, but we thought that the value of putting a number out there that the country could galvanize around and that could spark conversations about, okay, well what is the right number Was.

Was important and worth it for that number, you know, not to make sense. In some fringe cases. We are not in any way saying that that should be the minimum everywhere. We, we think at the teacher salary project that a hundred thousand dollars should be the minimum in, in so many places. But, well we're putting that out there as a baseline with the expectation that states and districts can, you know, can work from that.

And our hope very much is that a lot of of communities will choose to pay teachers, you know, much, much more than that minimum. But that. Can have a $60,000 minimum expectation, particularly in the lower paying regions of our country. You know, right now, a quarter of school districts. Don't allow a teacher's based salary ever to reach $60,000.

They might have a PhD in 30 years of experience and they will never be earning $60,000. So in those quarter of the school districts, I don't know the exact number, but if you know we have 15,000, what is that? 4,000 school districts. There's very clearly a significant impact for all teachers to make 60,000 the minimum.

And in every other school district we, oh, I wanna pause you for a second there, and then I hope you don't lose your train of thought, but order of schools do not allow teachers salaries above $60,000. Have we correlated that against the shortage that we're seeing in regionalized portions of America? I mean, we have it, and it's probably much more correlated with, with, with the, the cost of living in those places.

Like they're just, you know, there's just a lot of very low earning communities and, and those are the ones that are paying. We have 222 districts where the starting salary is still below $30,000, but they're very much centralized in just a couple of states. Hey, just, you know, tends to be low, and I should clarify, it's one quarter of districts, not one quarter of schools.

And so also districts might include, because they're probably more rural, low, low, low cost of living places, they probably include fewer schools and fewer teachers. So I would not say it's a quarter of, of teachers. We actually, the, so there's, there's data that showed that 43% of teachers in our country currently do not earn 60,000.

Well, that that's, there's a significant call to action when you hear that. Yes, yes. Even if I botched the numbers in the terms a little bit there. Thank you for clarifying. I was just caught off guard so much by, by that like very wide, and I, and obviously lots of folks are champions for paying teachers more, but when you hear numbers like that, it's hard not to have a little bit of word box.

I had myself here surprise of really what, what we're talking about. Okay, continue. Sorry. Thank you for letting me go. Yeah, no, but I think what you're saying, I mean, that's exactly right. Just this week I was interviewing this incredible superintendent of a rural school district in Oregon Baker School District.

And the superintendent had recently decided to take that leap and see if it would be possible to increase starting salaries. I think it was like $34,000 to $60,000. And, and she did it. And, we're writing up a case study about how and, and why and all of that to to show other rural districts that that is possible.

But what she said was that the reaction from the community was not one of pushback at all, but one of complete like shock that teachers were paid so low they couldn't be, they didn't realize that, they didn't realize that the average teacher salary was not the beginning teacher salary and just how low those, those early career teacher.

Salaries were. And so she said their, their minds just boggled at what the reality was when they learned that this change was taking place. And so it's really interesting, both us. So what we're trying to do at the Teacher's Salary Project is to create this positive shock to our country, to turn around, to turn around a turnaround quickly.

This idea.Right now, 62% of parents do not want their kids to become teachers, and low salaries is the number one reason why.And this, this number is the highest it's ever been. Like we were shocked as a country a few years ago when we learned that for the first time ever, the majority of parents, 54%, didn't want their kids to become teachers.

Now that's 62%, and this is at a time of, of crippling teacher shortages in, in many locations. And so we wanna create this positive shock that will make the country say, Wow. Actually, I can see that our nation's leaders and powers that be in fact are committed to making, teaching a livable, well-compensated career.

And, and so we think that $60,000 number and many, many communities is, you know, is what is that commitment that, that people need to see our leaders making to turn around their current perception and reality of, of teaching as a low paid profess. I remember when that article with the updated number about how many parents don't want their kids to become teachers came out and it was, you know, we're, we're in a, we're all experiencing the many, many, many after effects of lockdown and the trauma associated with the pandemic, which is still, you know, somewhat ongoing depending on, how you're looking at the term pandemic versus endemic, and.

There's a higher rate of mental health needs for students in schools today. Their academic success is lower than it ever has been. You have more students not in school today than have ever been disenrolled from schools ever, within the past, you know, within the past decade. And so you have more challenging.

Needs in front of teachers every day. And thus, you know, the job as the, as we referenced this other, Annenberg working paper earlier is harder than it has been to hear though, that so many of American parents don't want their kids to become teachers. Is, is so disheartening, like, I'm a teacher, you know, I, I'm so grateful that I'm a teacher and that's, you know, what I did when I first came out of college.

And I wonder, I wonder how the, the parental sentiment will change and what impact that the, the current kind of pulse will have on the long-term teacher pipeline. I agree. It is so, so very disheartening and so many teachers will tell you it is the best job. I mean, it is absolutely the best, most meaningful work a person could do, but.

When teachers aren't being treated with the respect that they deserve and the demands are what they are, and then on top of that, they're not able to pay their bills and they're not, and they're having to work second and third jobs and they're just, you know, exhausted and burnt out. Right. Now you mentioned the mental health challenges among students.

It's, it's awful. It's, I mean, students need to have teachers who are fully available to them. Teachers are, are suffering unprecedented mental health challenges and are. Highest the, the most burnt out group of professionals. And so we have to do something. We have to create this positive shock in our system that will support our teachers and allow them to, you know, take out dinner now and again to get the childcare that they might need to take time for themselves to get rid of their second, third.

So on and so on. Jobs and, you know, just take care of themselves and then, you know, that will enable them, no doubt, because this is what they all wanna do, to take care of, of their students to the best of their abilities and, you know, really be there for their kids as they accelerate their learning after the pandemic.

And as they deal with the traumas that so many kids have been dealing with in the mental health crises that have emerged from. Yeah, no, absolutely. I could not agree more. And you know, as I'm listening to you, I'm thinking, all right, let's say dream scenario. Everything passes and everybody starts adapting the 60,000 K base salary, right?

And we're gonna, we're gonna broadly apply that. What would be next for the teacher's salary project? Like what comes next on the horizon to tackle?Well, when salaries get to where they need to be, we will happily, happily cease to exist.We can't wait for the day when the teacher's salary project no longer needs to be here.

And, we'll go back to, to doing other work. Maybe teaching, but $60,000 is just. A start is absolutely just a starting place and so there's still a ton of work ahead. Like I said at the start,we think that teacher salaries should be starting really in many parts of our country at a hundred thousand dollarsand teachers earning potential should in many parts of our country, be going up to $250,000 and, and so, you know, just elevating the profession in ways that might sound unrealistic to some, but are actually.

Exactly what happens in the world's top performing school systems where the country's leaders have decided to invest in their teachers. Getting to that point is gonna require more than these federal bills. It requires a mind shift. We sometimes think of it as, as a, a Marshall plan for the teaching profession.

We think we we're starting with, with awareness. Raising and building that public and political will among people who you know, who might not understand teachers work very well, they might think that it is glorified babysitting. That's what the American teacher film was trying to, to combat by showing the complexity of teachers work, which is just even more complex.

today, a decade. And, and then we need leaders at every single level, at the local level, in the state level, and at the federal level who are all doing their piece to either in increase taxes or rearrange funds such that. They're going to what we all know matters most, which is, you know, our teachers and, and paying teachers that livable competitive wage.

And so I don't foresee our job being done, you know, in the immediate term, but I would be so happily pleasantly surprised. And with the momentum that we're seeing around teacher salaries, you know, who knows? Maybe this will be something that in just a few years, you know, changes I think, you know, other countries.

They've, they've done it quickly. They, they, like in Singapore, they, they just decided, they were like, we are going to be a country that pays its teachers. Well, we've done our review of what works in education around the, the world and this is what we're gonna do. And just made that decision. And, and now they've consistently been the top performing country.

They're teacher shortages are essentially non-existent. They recruit from the top 10% of college graduate. And I mean, it's funny because they did all of that looking at research that was coming out of the United States primarily. Well, I appreciate that the Teacher salary project is, is here in the United States serving as a catalyst for this work and whew, it's, it's a heavy topic.

This is just, it's so, you know, there's that matrix that's like, is it urgent, is it important? It feels it is urgent and is important and. I'm really, I'm excited as, as I follow along on the path and, and hopefully soon get more involved myself in the efforts of the teacher salary project. I am, I'm really excited about the dialogue that's happening and how.

People are really grappling with and, and, sorry, grabbing onto and being excited about the work. So thank you so much for sharing so much of it here. Thank you so much for the opportunity. So, Ellen, before we go, my, my last question that I asked all of our guests, which I'm so curious to hear your answer, is, what advice would you give a teacher who's just starting out their career Well, First, I would just say thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you for doing the most important work that a human could possibly be doing and shaping the next generation and generations to come.

And then I would say stick with it, but be vocal. You deserve to be paid, and. You are the person in the best position to advocate for that and to let your leaders know at the school level, the district level, the state level, and the federal level, that if they wanna keep you, they need to be paying you.

You share your story. If you are struggling, don't. Let yourself be gaslighted into thinking that you somehow shouldn't be paid your worth. And you know, that might mean joining organizations, your local, associations. There's other, great teacher leadership opportunities out there as well. Whether you're joining a, a Teach plus Group, educators for Excellence, national Board Certification, go for Teacher of the Year, there's so many opportunities for teachers to engage with like-minded.

Colleagues who are all working collectively to elevate the teaching profession. And, you know, that might seem impossible in your first few years as a teacher, but keep that North star and just know that we're all rooting for you. There are just so many people, three quarters of the public who want to see teacher pay, be competitive, and we just, you know, help us to help you get there by speaking up and sharing your story.

Wonderful. Ellen, thank you so much for joining today on The Learning Can't Wait podcast. It has been such an honor to interview you and hear about the work of the Teachers Salary Project. I know our listeners are going to have learned a lot and we'll be able to go to your website, the Teachers Salary Project, or excuse me, teachersalaryproject.org to learn more about the efforts.

Thank you, Hayley.

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