Teaching Teachers

Welcome to the Learning Can't Wait podcast an iTutor production at iTutor. Our vision is to ensure every child has access to education regardless of circumstance. Each episode, we will be joined by Pathfinders within and around the education space. Who are bringing about transformational change? On behalf of deserving students, I am your host, Hayley Spear Ofour.

Welcome everybody to today's episode. I am so excited to introduce Holly Owens, a fellow educator, and also the first time we have a guest on the pod today that is also a podcast host herself, Holly, welcome. Thank you. I'm excited to be here. I feel like this could be an experience where when I'm, when I'm talking with you and having you share your story, you may pull back.

So I wanna make sure I invite you. You're the guest today. You're not the editor. , your story's on display. Yeah. I'm excited to be on the other side of the seat. I do love interviewing though, so I can't say that that's not fun, but I'm happy to be a guest on your. Yeah, we're so happy to have you. Your podcast is called the EdUp EdTech edtech podcast.

So why don't you tell everybody who's listening today, what is it about you as an educator that has led you to have the impact you've had? And we'll talk about all that impact in a moment. And Bill your own podcast. I'm sorry, it's called the EdUp EdTech. Yeah, so I'm a part of the EdUp EdTech network, so I'm just one of the 16, I forget how many they have now, podcasts that are part of that network.

So we're all a family in that network and in education. You know, right now I'm a senior instructional designer with academic partnerships. So I transitioned outta the classroom about 10 years ago. So I've been doing instructional design for about, yeah, a little over a decade when I transitioned out. And education has always been, Important to me.

you know, from a young age as a child, it was ingrained in my head as being an, I'll say an elder millennial, that I was going to go to college, I was going to get a college degree, and that was going to be my path. And then I was gonna get a job and, you know, work for 40 or 50 years and then retire. So education has definitely been one of the things that has been influenced through me by, by my parents, my grandparents.

So I, you know, I won't get too much into my story yet, we'll talk about that in a minute. But I just love what I do and I love working with. I've been in K through 12, I've been in higher ed. You know, I currently work for an OPM and I just really enjoy working with people in this space because it's such a welcoming space, but it's also one that's very dynamic.

I. Holly, I can identify with so much of what you shared, including the elder, millennial part. I think that could be interesting for us to explore today, like how our generation has been raised to view the path to college and through college as the path singular, versus how maybe it's shifting in society now, and what priorities.

Kind of taken hold. But then secondarily, I think your breadth of experience working both in K-12 and secondary at the op, like you have such a diverse experience and background. I wanna ask you to pick a favorite, but that's like asking someone to pick their favorite student. Yeah. Well, I would say my favorite is probably higher ed because, oh, so you, you didn't even hesitate.

You just, I didn't, I did not know. I didn't hesitate. Cuz there's a lot of issues going on in K through 12. And there were issues too when I taught. And we can get into all that. And I just recently had Mike Yates on my podcast. I actually dropped that episode as we're talking today, and he's, he's been in K through 12 and he works for Teach For America.

So we talk a lot about, education stuff on that episode, and we really got into it in terms of like what education needs to change. We were, it was very, it's a wonderful episode anyways, so I would say higher education because I. I feel freer in higher education. I feel like the, you're with adults and I'm talking more like graduate level cause I teach at the graduate level.

I think that's been my favorite so far is because I can really relate to the students in terms of where they're at in their lives. Even though many of them are younger than me at this point, we still have a lot of the same shared experiences and. , you know, meeting, meeting them where they're at during a pandemic.

That's another topic we could go into is just so important, like showing that empathy. And I feel like in higher education, that's encouraged, and that's something that we talk about a lot, you know, in higher ed is like, how do you know there's these things going around about UN grading or like showing empathy or meeting the students where they're at and reinvent.

Higher ed. So I feel like higher ed is more apt to reinvent itself or be open to that. Sometimes it's not. It depends on the institution than K through 12. K through 12 is very structured and very regulated by, you know, certain expectations, government or otherwise. You know, I was talking to someone, an upcoming guest, for the podcast, and they had a similar idea, similar statement to you that secondary education, is really, is really more of a business.

It's more, it operates more as a dynamic. Market driven organization or like, or body or species, then K-12, which has so many boundaries and rules. Given that you just shared your preference or love or your favorite as secondary, why don't we talk about how you, your journey led you from the K-12 space to secondary, and where you.

Not to get morbid here, but like what you want your impact to be on the secondary space, you know, as an instructional designer, as somebody with this breadth of experience, like what is it that you're, you're hoping to, to bring to the table in your secondary communities? Yeah, I definitely, so. In eighth grade, I knew I wanted to be a teacher, and by the time I job shadowed one of my mom's friends in eighth grade, she was a, eighth grade science teacher.

And then from there I just, that was my journey. And then went into college and majored in, I started out biology. And then I switched to American Studies. So I did more like the interdisciplinary type route, social studies, that kind of stuff. And then secondary education. I went to, UMBC right outside of Baltimore.

It's, it's a very well known institution now with, Dr. Hrabowski is retiring this year, our president. He's wonderful. Then I graduated and I knew, like I was so antsy sitting in those classes. I remember thinking to myself, Like, I already know this. Just gimme my own classroom. I know what I'm doing. You know, I was one of those struggling learners and I, I know exactly what the students need.

so just gimme the classroom. So I got the classroom finally, it was my first interview and I got the job and I was a social studies teacher and. You know, the first year was pretty o it was. Okay. You know, a lot of people, and Mike mentioned this on my show too, it's funny, we just had this conversation.

You're just kind of figuring it out. You know, there's long hours, you're kind of sticking with the students. And then it started to get a bit regulated, like I taught in a course that was state assessed. So the testing scores were kind of shoved down our throats and at the county level, at the state level, national level, whatever.

And it just didn't feel like I was open enough to do what I wanted to do in the classroom. Now mind you, there were a lot of great activities and lessons I came up with to accommodate the testing and that sort of stuff, and also give my students a break from that. But they knew. They knew like what I was preparing them for.

So, It, it just, it just didn't feel right at a certain point that I wasn't doing what I had envisioned myself doing in this creative, very creative space. And I just, I was like, I don't think I can do this forever. But the good news is, is when I walked into the school, the principal asked me to do a, a grant through the state of Maryland, and I got a set of smart, I got a set of CPS clickers, which don't exist anymore.

No they don't. And and, and a smart board in my c. And that is where I fell in love with edtech and I started exploring different opportunities there. And eventually I did a training. I did a training at the board with somebody and they're like, you should train people in this. So I started training people in my school and then went to, eventually led to the county and the district, you know, just doing different in-services.

And then after that I was like, this could really go some. So that's when I decided I was just gonna step out. I was like, okay, you know, I'm tired of teaching. You know, it's, I really, I didn't realize it at the time what it was. It was burnout. I was really burnt out on what was happening. So I left teaching and then I did e-learning, government contracting for about six months, and my boss at the time said the, one of the things I'll never.

His name was Tyrone Davis. He probably won't even listen to this podcast, but I wanna say his name. Anyways, he took me for a walk around the building and he says, you know, talent recognizes talent. And I was like, what? He, I was young at the time. I was like, what do you mean? And he is, he said, there's this job at Northern Virginia Community College.

You should apply for it and go for it. He's like, I know that's what you wanna do. That's education. You're, that's what you, you, you should. So I applied for the job. I went for the interview, and not 15 minutes later after I left the interview, the my soon-to-be supervisor was calling me, telling me, The job.

So that's where it all started. There's the evidence of the talent, right Holly, that, that Tyrone Davis spoke of talent, recognized talent sounds like real organized, real. I like that. I like that. Well, lemme pause you for a second cuz I'm, I'm hearing this story, I'm listening to you share, and it would be, we'd be remiss if we did not acknowledge the, the feeling of burnout that so many teachers right now are feeling the NEA just released a, a report on.

Constituents that 55% of them are considering exiting the classroom earlier than they had planned due to the level of burnout they are feeling today. Yep. Yeah, that, I mean, that number is big. That's really huge. It wasn't that big when, you know, there was al, there's always talk of teacher shortages and things like that, but this is, this is something on another level what's happening, and it's happening because there's no boundaries in what you can expect a teacher to.

So the teacher is the parent in the classroom. The teacher is the person who is facilitating the education. The teacher is the person who makes you feel safe. They're like your security guard. You know, there's a lot of different hats that a teacher wears in the classroom, and I think that that has caused people to be burnout because on a psychological level, as humans, we can only handle so much.

And some of these student. And, you know, inner cities and you know, just actually everywhere across the United States, you know, I taught in a very rural school district, but it was low socio socioeconomic. So these kids would come to school not having lunch money. You know, they, they had, they had a bad night because their parents were yelling at them, or, you know, they didn't sleep at their house that night.

Stuff like that. And that, Magnified now and then the teacher is expected to deal with those issues and actually have this student prepared and focused and perfected for a state test all while a pandemic is happening. Right. How does that state test account for the trauma is there, are there check marks on the exam right now that acknowledge the trauma that students are carrying, that teachers are carrying both from personal and secondary experienced trauma?

Like there is a real. Level of, of, I mean, just a barrier as to how, how much more we can place or how much more we can actually expect from our teachers. I like that you said there's no boundaries on what you can expect the teacher to do, because I think that's change. That's not how it always was. . Mm-hmm.

Yep. I feel like we just, just like with doctors and nurses, the high expectations that we put on them during the pandemic to perform, we put the same thing on teachers because we went remote and we're like, okay, well, we are just expected to know how to do this. Because you were trained as an educator, which in reality, that's not what you were trained to do.

You were trained to be in person in a classroom. You know, caring for these students and guiding them along their journey, and then you have to sit behind a computer screen and try to do it from there when there's all kinds of distractors from where they're sitting, you know, like, that's not gonna happen,

No, it's not. It's certainly not. I think we could probably fill, you know, record seven episodes about the, the trauma and the, the emotional strain of, of facing our educators today. And I, I kind of pulled us off target from you talking a little bit more about your trajectory and your, your own path, but, you know, important to note and you talk to a lot of teachers on a regular basis.

Mm-hmm. . So more than, more than most people. You have your finger on the pulse of. Is happening for teachers. So maybe I could ask you if you would continue onward with your, your journey to, to instructional design and the work you do now, and tie in a little bit about what you're hearing directly from the teachers that, that you get to meet and interact with in, in the various posts you hold.

Definitely. So, I started at Northern Virginia Community College and then I got re recruited to Coppin State in Baltimore, Maryland, which is an HBCU. And I had a blast there. And then I went back to my alma mater, I went to UMBC, A job opened up and I'm like, I'm just gonna see if this, this happens.

and then as I was starting in instructional technology design, I started teaching again because that's where my love and lies and my passion, I've recognized that. So I teach. If you like current educators, I've taught current educators who worked in Washington dc Current educators are working in New York, state public school system, New York City public school system, and they all come to me and we have conversations in my class about what's going on in their lives, whether pre pandemic and post pandemic.

And they just, they're tired. And I think one of the things that we try to figure out, while we'll have a few minutes of. Us expressing ourselves what? What's happening that's negative. And then I flip it to, well, how do we solve this? What's the resolution? What do we do for our students? What do we do for ourselves?

So we have those conversations too. And teachers, Really just want a break. They want some grace in what they do, and I think the students want that as well. And the testing has to really take a backseat. It really does, because that's not what's important right now. It's the people and the humans who are experiencing like, People all over the world lost people be due to the pandemic.

And we're not even acknowledging the fact, we're just making sure that people are pressing forward, which is fine to a certain extent, but then you have to deal with these overwhelming mental health issues and burnout from the teachers. So I think what I'm hearing from them now, Is they just want a little bit of a break.

They want more of stabilize cuz it's going in person, remote, in-person, remote. And as you know, psychologically for, especially for younger kids, that's hard to adjust to. Like adults, we can turn it around, that's fine. But younger kids, that is not, that's very, very challenging for them. So yeah, structure, routine order.

You know, I'll say that as a teacher I knew the importance of it, but as a parent, I now live and breathe it. I, I fear the phone call from the district telling me one of my su one of my children has to quarantine because I know what it means for them, the, the instability of it. And I think that parents and, and guardians all over the United States and all over the world are, are living that truth as well.

So there are many stakeholders affected, and to your point, we all just need a little bit of stability, a little bit of a break. And, and it's not clear when we'll get. Right. It's not, it's not, we're as teachers, like, when does this end? What are the scientists don't really know either. So that that kind of like lack of a finish line is probably even more daunting in some ways because there isn't an end in sight.

Yeah, and I think that's something we're definitely gonna have to cope with and deal with as we continue in pandemic status, you know, as educators. And they're leaving, like you said, that 50 some percent, that's a lot of people that are thinking about leaving. I've read things on LinkedIn about, My students, school's closed today, but it's not because of weather, it's because they're, they have a teacher shortage or calling in an actual guard in New Mexico or calling in.

Right, right. Exactly. So when does it become, you know, so much that we, you know, we're just watching these people leave before we say we actually have to do something. We actually have to give them something that they need. I don't know if people realize this, but in the corporate, You, you get what's called PTO Pay time off or days off holidays and while teacher.

Which is a huge misconception. Get summers off. I'm putting this air quote, summers off. You usually do professional development then. And I coach field hockey for three years, so I was back like two, three weeks before anybody else was back. Teachers have that too, and they should take their time. I remember feeling enormous amounts of guilt.

So much guilt, leaving my students for leaving with your. Leaving your students with a substitute teacher like on a Friday and a Monday to take a long weekend somewhere. But you should absolutely take that time because you earned that time, especially now, and people are gonna be using that in droves now be, or they're retiring and they're just saying, I can't do this.

So I really think at the district level, at the state levels, at the national level, they're really gonna. To have some conversations surrounding how are we gonna manage this, and how are we going to pay these people better? How are we going to support them because, in the United States, I think the average pay of a teacher was somewhere around $50,000, which is super low.

Incredibly low cons. Considering what you know, what we do to become a teacher, you have to get certified. You have to take four years of college. You have to be re-certified every four years. Five years, whatever the state recommends, and you have to continue your education. So you also have to get a master's degree at a certain point and maybe more than a master's degree.

So like we're putting all this added pressure onto the educator, but we're not gonna equivalate that with better pay. Now, while some districts have like the steps, my district had the steps where you would go up, I don't, I don't, I don't know. I don't know why we don't pay teachers like a livable wage, like we don't pay them something.

Yeah, we, we, they, it need, we need to do, do better. One of the things, so our team looks, you know, at it, we look really closely at teacher compensation, and one of the things we realized after doing some number crunching recently was that the steps are awesome, but they actually don't account for inflation.

So the other piece that's a challenge is that cost of living has increased in every place in space across the United States and world. , but because the teacher's salaries don't account for cost of living, they're making less today. When you incorporate the, the rate of inflation, which is mind blowing mm-hmm.

It, it must be one of the only professions that doesn't actually hold itself accountable to that point. Yeah. It really, it really made. Me feel. So it was an odd situation when we heard that the state was giving us a cola raise, a cost of living like 3%. And I'm like, you should be giving me this raise. I'm giving you my time, I'm doing all this stuff in the classroom.

Like this is the expectation when you're performing, you know, that's the compensation and return. And you know, teachers will, the, we don't do things for the. , that's not why we're here. I wanna make that clear, is thatteachers don't teach from the money.Like I'm not in adjunct teaching positions because I.

Thousands of dollars and I'm going to my yacht, you know, on the Italian coastline. I'm like laughing and I was muted. But people should hear the laughter cause that's definitely not what's happening. We don't do it for the money. And that's another conversation about adjuncts cuz they're paid just as terribly as teachers we're there to, to help education along to, to make it a shining spot in our society.

And when I was talking to Mike Yates, he always keeps coming up. He. There's several things that everybody encounters. You have like the government and education taxes, like everybody gets that experience. Like everybody touches it, touches everybody, you know? So, You have to think about that. Why aren't we putting those resources into, to education?

And we know from research that education, when you're educated, you, you make more, you, you know, you, you like to help other people. You, you know, you have all these opportunities that open up. So I'll stop with the, the pay talk. But I really think I, as much as I love like celebrity gossip, news, and. You know, baseball and pro sports, they're not doing as nearly as much as educators are doing to change our culture and society or putting into it.

You know, it's great to hear about the Kardashians, and I'm not gonna lie, I love that kind of stuff, but when these celebrities are getting paid as much as they are and teachers are just, you know, somebody taught them something, they went through. The teacher changed them. You know, I still remember my fourth grade teacher, I, and I spoke about this on my podcast.

I was gonna be putting a three four split cuz I was gonna be remedial remediated cuz I wasn't ready for fourth grade. And my mom, grandmother were like, oh, that's not happening. So I got into fourth grade with a wonderful teacher who helped me along. Help me learn and you know, that is okay to be a little bit slower, but eventually I got it.

And I'll never forget that. So anybody can name one of the best teachers they ever had. I was just gonna invite our listeners to do that, to, to take it a moment. Remember that teacher, everyone that I've had on the podcast names that teacher. And I don't know if you saw this, but yesterday Jimmy Kimmel interviewed the creator of Abbott Elementary and she spoke about how the show is actually named after her third grade teacher.

So Quinta Brunson had a third grade teacher named Ms. Abbott, and in the middle of his episode, Jimmy Kimmel's interview of Quinta Brunson, she. Came abor on the, on the camera, on the screen, and Quinta Brunson and Ms. Abbott talked to each other about what an. That Ms. Abbott had on her life. Like, you're right, this is, this is hard work, but this is also transformational societal work.

Educating our children is about moving society forward. It's not an individualistic act, it's a societal act. And so if we're not doing it right, we're, we're literally shooting ourselves in the foot as a. Yep. Yep. And we're not compensating the people, and I mean, not just through money, through time, through letting them have their time.

We're not giving them that we're, and that's really terrible. And I, I would say the same thing for doctors and nurses. Like they're, they're leaving in droves too. There's Thai turnover there, and we're just not, we're not giving them the. Nothing need to like recoup. I think you're naming though, so I, I heard two things.

One is like, let's pay 'em more. Right? And I think everyone in education would, you know, high five you through the screen or through the, through their earbuds listening to you talk right now. The other one is, let's give some grace. Encourage our teachers to take the time off. It seems counterintuitive.

You know, my mom was a flight attendant and she always said, you have to put your oxygen mask on first before you can help the people around you. And that is 100% true for our me medical personnel and our healthcare workers as much as it is for our teachers. Just think about those days where you like have meetings all day long and how your head is so tired.

Your mind is so tired. It's not a physical tiredness, it's just a mental tiredness. And yet that's your brain telling your body that you need to rest and rejuvenate. And if it's anything I've learned since being in higher ed or in, you know, the outskirts of higher ed is, that's so important. And because you can't perform at your best when you don't have the mental capacity to.

And if school systems could work out some sort of schedule where teachers are helping each other. I don't like to hear that teachers are, their planning time is taken up by them substituting for another class that that is their time. They ha they need the time to plan. They need the time to rest before the next class or the next whatever they're gonna be doing the next duty.

So I, I've really encouraged like school systems to find a way to set up schedules that work for everybody. And it's gonna be challenging. There's gonna be some, there's gonna be some mistakes. There's gonna be some times when it's gonna be a struggle. But I think as humans and as teachers, they would just appreciate that, that you're thinking about them.

I love that there are a lot of parameters we don't always have control over. Right. And one of the ones that we do have control over, especially as school leaders, Is or are the schedules of our community, of what our, how our school operates to ensure that we're giving adequate break time to our teachers and our staff.

So they can show up and be present for kids. You know, Holly, I'm wondering because you have a, a, a very lengthy background in instructional technology, . I'm wondering, yeah. I'm wondering, well, and I say that you make sound old age here because. Interactive flat panels when you were first introduced to them, were not widespread.

You were probably, like you said, it was a grant, so it was probably one of the inish, so, so I'm wondering how technology, I'm imagining you think technology plays a huge part in advancing education, so, so what part would you say that it it played then, and what part would you say it plays now? Then it played, it was more about engagement, getting them excited, you know, also streamlining things.

And I think it plays that role now stream streamlining, like when the clickers, I would have the students have the paper test, but they would do it on the clickers and then I could, between a bell period, I could transfer it from outside of my grade book into my grade book. And it was done. Like I didn't take papers.

Home degrade. So some of that streamlining, I think initially technology is seen as a very shiny piece of thing that can change a lot, but in fact,technology comes secondary to the pedagogyand I learned that. Very early on because if I didn't understand the technology and I didn't understand what I was doing in the classroom and I couldn't marry those two together, my students certainly aren't gonna grasp the lesson I'm trying to teach.

And I like it when technology becomes more of, it's there, but it's. It's, you're not noticing it, it becomes a part of what you do. Instead of like, Ooh, we're using this great tool, which, you know, initially that's what it is, but as you're using it, like say like a Google Docs or even, I love my mom and I like to go shell hunting.

I live in South Carolina, we go down to Pawleys Island and sometimes we find things, we don't know what they are. So I use Google Lens on my phone and then we that comes up. But that kind of stuff. It's just a part of like, I know where to go for it. And I think students with technology nowadays, they have to learn this stuff.

Like I talked to my, I have a younger sister who's gonna be 13 this year, and I talked to her about technology. She's like, I don't need to know that. I'm like, yes you do. You totally need to know. How to look stuff up, how to search things, how to evaluate things, because that's what they're gonna be. . Yes.

That's what they're gonna be doing in their jobs. Yes. We're training, we're training these students now for jobs that don't exist. So we're kind of just flying blind. But if you walk into a space, whether that's with a higher education faculty member or a K through 12 teacher, and they're absolutely resistant to technology or the OR on the other side of that, they don't know what they're.

The students are gonna be the ones that suffer the most because they're not gonna get what they need to matriculate through that program, and they're definitely not gonna get what they need to be successful in the real world. So when you think about technology, don't think about it as something like, Ooh, I'm gonna try this Flipgrid, or I'm gonna try this.

I'm gonna try that, and just throw all these tools out there. I usually tell educators to try a couple things each year that work great for. And then maybe next year try something different to incorporate. But you find that over time you learn what works best for you and your students. So, I mean, technology is, to me, it's always secondary to the pedagogy.

As much as I'm a tech proponent, proponent and I love shining new technology, like I guess just got a Dyson Airwrap. So I don't just love technology in the education space. I love it in all areas. Then, you know, use more works best. I think there's a less a life lesson underlying all of. Right. So you said , just try one or two, try a couple and then reevaluate and move forward.

One of the, the problems that happens in education, I think, at least for teachers in the classroom, is there's mandates for what they must use. There's teachers in the next room. Now there's teacher talk in social media where everybody talks about the shiny tools. But if it doesn't work for you, why would you use it?

Right? Like I, you know, everybody that it's, it's a lesson on personalization and differentiation. Isn't that what we preach in our classrooms, that not every tool works for every kid. Like Holly and I are sitting here, both of us in spectacles right now. But not everybody needs glasses. So you don't use 'em unless you want 'em for, you know, Purposes of vanity.

You don't use 'em. A blue light, the blue light or blue light, right? But you don't use 'em unless you need them. That should be true of technology as well. We should be able as educators to make informed decisions about not only what will move the needle for our kids, but also what we can commit to, to learning.

And really, like you said, Integrating properly with our practice in pedagogy not, or excuse me, our pedagogy into practice. Yeah, I think there's a lot to be said about the technologies that streamline and save time on the teacher end, but also engage students and are. Intuitive and easy to use because, you know, edu technology is usually built to solve some sort of problem in education and sometimes people try to, tech companies try to do like too many problems, like too many different things with the technology.

Like they, like, they try to fulfill in different areas. But I feel like, you know, and I did a LinkedIn post about this recently, I did a, five things to consider when you. Evaluating a tech tool based off of Universal Design for learning principles and for some reason UDL getting a bad rep recently. I don't know why.

UDL, I've seen this trend as well. I don't understand cuz I really like the principles behind making things accessible for all and, and considering, you know, certain aspects and features of it. But we'll just, you know, every, everything takes its turn, I guess, and the, the, the bash light. So just consider all those things.

And another thing to be aware of as we're saying, don't just use it for the sake of using it, is you will use a technology that does not go over well and it's okay. It's probably one lesson, one day, maybe it's a couple days and it doesn't go well. So what? Move on. It's not the end all, be all if, if you try something and it fails, at least you tried it and you learned it didn't work for you.

That's how we learn in life. It's trial and error or this whole thing, trial and error. Like, oh, that didn't work, so I'm gonna back up and go this direction. Not to get too preachy on that, but one of the most powerful lessons that I've seen before me is a level of transparency in my own organization's leadership, but also in previous schools that I've worked in, where you name it for the kids, Hey kids, I tried this tool.

I thought it was going to do x. It didn't do X, like it didn't help us achieve X outcome, so we're abandoning it. I used to have, and this is not my idea, it's probably someone like Jennifer Serravallo's amazing idea, but I used to have this bin in my classroom, which was the abandoned books graveyard, because sometimes we pick up books and we don't actually like them, and it is just as important to abandon them as it is to find books that we.

And so I think showing kids what you are naming and telling them why you've abandoned it also gives them those life skills you spoke about earlier, Holly. It shows them that as adults and as professionals, we have to evaluate the path we're taken and abandon that path. If it is not meeting the outcomes or on the path to meeting the outcomes we seek.

Definitely and not beating ourselves up over it. I feel like teachers hold a lot of guilt in them for if certain things don't go the way that they're supposed to, cuz every day is different. . You know, one day you walk in, it's like, these students, these learners are the, the most glorious set of, you know, ninth graders you've ever met.

And the next day they're totally different. . Mm-hmm. . Their needs are different. They change over time. And we too, as adults, and I think, like you said, the transparency is very valuable in that experience. Like, no, we're just gonna pivot a little bit and mom might take them a little bit of time to assimilate to the new.

They'll, they'll forget about it. They're not even gonna remember. They're not even gonna remember those mishaps. But they will remember if you're honest with them. Right. They'll remember that. Yes. They'll a teacher that they have . Yeah. No, I think it's, you're making such good points about abandoning technology if it's not fitting our needs right.

As educators. So, so Holly, you're really close to educators in, in your support and your teaching of them at the, you know, university level and the graduate level. What would you say, is a thing in education that, that you see amongst your teachers that you work with that you wish could be highlighted for the larger community?

What's something that's shining bright, right? There's a, a lot of talk in this, in this podcast today of things we wanna change and make better, but what's going really? , I think what's going well is. They want to be there and they want to support their students through this time, and they want to continue to be teachers.

Sometimes they don't feel like they've had other options, and some of the things that my students telling me that they're doing is. They are designing the most crazy lessons using technology, then they're going out to this website, then they're coming back and having us to discussion or using breakout rooms.

I think the, the, the shiny bright spot is there's, everybody is still trying really hard for the learners. And it's very positive to hear when I come into the classroom that when my, my students have a good. And when they say everything worked appropriately, the students were paying attention. And I think people are getting used to the virtual too.

I think that's one thing that's important too, is that online is being seen almost in a positive light. It's not something that is like, oh, this is the other, this is the, you know, the stepchild of face-to-face. It's totally different. So online. Gotten its day in the light, seeing its value and where people like you and I, we've like, duh, , we've known this for years.

Yeah, exactly. . Yeah, I know. We've seen this. It was triage. It was triage. The adapting of, of technology in the, in the manner that we did two years ago almost to the day that we did was triage mode and now there's an opportunity. For real evaluation of what, what education looks like moving forward. I hear what you're saying about the passion of educators and the real desire and passion drives a lot, right?

Mm-hmm. , that's what drives educators usually into the classroom. Like you said, it's not the money. They're not buying yachts on the weekend. It's their love and desire to affect change in the lives of children. Yeah. And just to know that, that that change and impact isn't always instant gratification. It takes years for somebody to come back and say, you know, I remember when, and just the, the amount of patience and their commitment that they have to their learners.

I just love hearing them talk about it. It really. After every, I teach on Thursday nights, so after class I'm like really hyped up on like endorphins from talking to my students about their, what they're doing and also our content. And I just think there's so many people. As much as the people are trying to leave, there's still people who want to be teachers.

There's still people who want to be in this. They still want to see education change for the better. And they're not giving up. They're not giving. When we need those people who are not, yeah. We need to support this cause I left . Yeah. I mean, and I, candidly I did too, right? Like I, I was in the classroom, right?

For eight years. I became an administrator and it, it, I left as well. I was burnt out at eight years. I heard eight years, a pretty prime time that, that teachers get burnt out and it hit me hard. I think though that. More people talking about burnout and starting to identify the systemic struggle and problems that exist.

We can get to a place where we do pay teachers more, encourage them to take time off, create better structure, and schedules. All these three things, which you named throughout the podcast today. We have to, we have to. Otherwise, who's gonna show up to teach our babies next? Yeah, I know who's gonna be there to, to help them through, like, you know, parents have to have full-time jobs.

What's gonna happen? Like, we need to, we need to sustain our families. And teaching is such a, a dynamic part of the education community that we can't survive without teachers. Just like, we can't survive without doctors and nurses. There's no way. That that's gonna happen. You know, like people talk about like, well, is brick and mortar gonna exist anymore?

Is like, oh, I'll be virtual. But you still need teachers. You still need people there to support it. You need those subject matter experts to be able to serve as guides. However that looks, they're going to need to be there. That's how we all expand our knowledge. We all in, in one way or another. We seek teachers for.

Everything we do, we read blog posts, we listen to podcasts, we consume newspapers, we read books. That's just a form of teaching, but there was teaching before that. There was the K-12 experience and maybe beyond that is vital in making us who we are today and allowing us to experience the successes we have.

I think you're absolutely right, Holly. Well, I hope so. And I just, I just wish for all teachers that they get the, and that this includes higher education faculty too, cuz they've been through it as well. They just get the, the grace that they need and the the breaks that they need to recoup so they can come back to.

You know, what excites them about being, being a teacher or what excites them about being a faculty member. And it's sharing your experiences with your students and teaching them new things and then watching them go out into the world or them shooting an email and saying like, I got this job, or, I did this.

I was on this podcast, or I did a blog post. Or, you know, just seeing them be successful is, is good enough. It's, it's, it really reinforces what we. As educators. I mean, I can't, I can't imagine like not having some of the experiences I had as an educator and having definitely the experiences I've had as a higher ed faculty and just being with my learners and watching them grow, that's so important to me.

So important. Yeah. It's powerful to hear you share it in that way. Thank you so much for, for. Highlighting that for our listeners. Holly, it's funny because the question that I typically ask our guests last, which is what advice might you give an educator at the start of the, their career is not aite for you.

So what advice do you give educators at the start of their career? I would say to them, you have to definitely take it step by step. There's gonna be so much thrown at you, you're gonna be learning a new. , you're gonna be seen as the new teacher. You're gonna be the first year teacher, which is like a title that you wear for several months.

And I think just trying to take, like developing the lessons, presenting them to the students, learning from them and reflecting is so important that first year of teaching. Listening to other teachers and being, putting yourself in a position where you're around the positive people, not the people bashing it all the time.

Is what really led me to doing, you know, what I did when I was a teacher and you know, training people at the board. So I think it's really grasping like Pac-Man get taking those little bits and pieces at a time. Because eventually you'll turn around and you're like, I've been doing this for five years now.

I've been doing this for 10 years now. And you're like, you thought, you think when you start at the beginning, like it's so overwhelming all the stuff they're throwing at. , butyou just have to remind yourself to take it in chunks, just like you do your lessons, and then be successful where you are, reflect where you're not, and then remember why the reason is you're doing it.

And that's, that's what I did. I love that. Again, a lesson for educators, but a life lesson for all. . Take it a second time. Yeah. I'm gonna sort, I do this stuff daily. , like I must outta bed and make breakfast one thing at a time. First step out of my bed. , yes. First get out of bed. Maybe put some Nonas pants on from time to time.

Why would I do that, Holly? I know. I know. I'm just tea . Yeah. No. Yeah. It's definitely step-by-step. Yeah, absolutely. As we wrap up, I realize we spent no time talking about your hair wrap, your Dyson Airwrap. It's something I'm interested in, perhaps this topic for our next podcast. But really valuable insights, from you, Holly, who with all, with your experience in and around schools, in in secondary institutions.

I think a lot of listeners here today are hopefully taking. Just the vision for how we can remedy what, what's going on in schools today, how we can support teachers, how we can think about the integration of technology. A lot of, a lot of gems to pick up. Thank you. Yeah, I hope so. Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank.

I'm so glad you were able to take time out of your own podcast recording schedule to join this time, . You're very welcome. Anytime I, I should ask, how did it feel on the other side of the microphone? It feels good on the other side. I love doing it. I love talking to other people. It's just awesome to like share in a space with other educators like yourself and we know what we're talking about.

Like there's that confidence level there when you're speaking to a fellow educator that you don't have to say it. You already know it. Yeah. What I'm talking about, well, you are a phenomenal guest just as you are a host, and I'm so grateful you took time outta your day to join us today. Thank you, Holly.

You're welcome, and thanks to all our listeners for tuning in.

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